Guns and Butter?

[markderidder]

Can someone clearly state what RP means when he refers to "Guns and Butter"? I have an idea but, it is unclear. And the image that pops in your head when you hear this is bizarre!

I really wish Ron Paul wouldn't through out vague terms that the majority of the American public are unfamiliar with. I think that is part of what turns some off.

-Mark

[NightOwl]

The phrase refers to the idea that we don't need to choose between more military action (guns) and more welfare and domestic spending (butter). We can have it all, baby! Guns and butter!

But as Dr. Paul says, that policy led to the stagflation of the 1970s.

[bgoldwater]

It means heavy spending on foreign affairs (guns) and domestic affairs (butter) at the same time. It is a term to describe LBJ's policy on the great society as well as the Vietnam war at the same time.

[greendiseaser]

yeah.
unfortunately i think it goes over the heads of 99% of the viewing audience.

[itshappening]

mark, see my thread 'Empire' as well

I really think the campaign needed its message filitered and washed by a Luntz like figure, to test the messages and stick with the language that works

[Truth Warrior]

It's a throwback phrase of the 60's. Guns ( Viet Nam ) and butter ( LBJ's Great Society [ so-called ]). We can't afford both the warfare AND the welfare state.

[MsDoodahs]

yeah.
unfortunately i think it goes over the heads of 99% of the viewing audience.

I don't think it does - it is a phrase that older voters will be more likely to understand.

[TexFootballMom]

I don't think it does - it is a phrase that older voters will be more likely to understand.


yep

[Thumper]

yeah.
unfortunately i think it goes over the heads of 99% of the viewing audience.

It shouldn't be over the head of anyone who has graduated from high school.

In the age of the internet there is no excuse for someone not googling a term they dont know. I seriously don't understand peoples willingness to remain ignorant.

I am not trashing anyone in this thread...just saying. Have people really become so lazy that even Google is too much work??

[micahnelson]

Ron Paul was old school back when the old school was the new school.

[peznex]

I don't think it does - it is a phrase that older voters will be more likely to understand.

Exactly. As for me, I'm 22. I go to Google.

[JK/SEA]

I don't think it does - it is a phrase that older voters will be more likely to understand.


Yes, exactly. I'm 56. Went through the nam years, and knew what Ron was saying immediately.

Ron gave the younger voters something to research as well. Smart man.

[Janet0116]

I'm 38 and knew what this phrase meant. Who are you thinking won't understand it?

[Quick]

Even if you don't know what "Guns and Butter" means -- any person can assume what it means. So saying that 99% of people didn't understand it is pretty inaccurate.

I didn't know exactly what it meant, but at the same time I knew exactly what it meant.

[TonySutton]

He was using the term to reach out to the older voters. This is a demographic he needs help with so his focus was to get their attention by using terms they are familiar with.

[angelatc]

I don't think it does - it is a phrase that older voters will be more likely to understand.

I am 44. I had never heard the phrase until Ron Paul uttered it.

[extrmmxer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_and_butter

[Exarel]

He was using the term to reach out to the older voters. This is a demographic he needs help with so his focus was to get their attention by using terms they are familiar with.

Thats pretty smart :)

[mmink15]

For those that don't get "guns and butter" let me lay it out as it was tought to me, "coconuts and fish".
Say you are stranded on a deserted island with only 2 food options, coconuts and fish. If you spent a whole day getting coconuts you could get 7 if you spent the day on fish you'd get 4. If you want both you split up your day so you can have some of each.
Now, what I get out of "guns and butter" is that if we spend all our time on guns, we'll have no time left to gather food.
That's the very very short version from my perspective

[MsDoodahs]

I am 44. I had never heard the phrase until Ron Paul uttered it.

64 year olds have heard it.

[micahnelson]

I'm 24 and I get it...

I don't have much of a social life though. Guns and Butter, Fish and Coconuts, Learning and Social Interaction. You can't have both!

[risiusj]

From my understanding people thought we were spending too much money on "guns" in Vietnam and thought the money would be better spent on "butter" or domestic goods and services. Then the high-ups in the government decided that they could provide both by printing the money they needed, thus causing economic grief that Dr. Paul was warning us about way back then.
Oh, I'm 19.

[Jae0]

I'm 24 and I get it...

I don't have much of a social life though. Guns and Butter, Fish and Coconuts, Learning and Social Interaction. You can't have both!

Hey im exactly the same way! But 23. haha
I guess not having much of a social life pays off sometimes.

[billjarrett]

I heard it just recently in my Introduction to Macroeconomics class, it was in chapter 1. So, I guess anyone younger who is going for a business/finance/economics/accounting background should have encountered it. I'd heard it before (I'm an older student). But, Macroeconomics is a freshman/sophomore requirement for alot of different degrees. It's still being taught.

[bingo23]

RP tosses out these little grenades and waits for them to pop later on. He can't win by debating who's more honest like McCain and Romney can do with the help of MSM. He needs to stick to these issues and hope others help him set off these political grenades. The recession, economy, and the other candidates saying dumb things help. But, he needs a break-through MSM discussion or endorsement like the Terminator or someone who can help detinate these on the MS stage.

How's that for using the hell out of a bad analogy?

[Johncjackson]

This term was used in my first Economics class ( would say ECON 101, but it was really 201 or something) at a state University. I am 28. Certainly not an antiquated term.

Though I suppose 99% of the people did not even get to Econ 101 or high School American History class?

[Johncjackson]

I heard it just recently in my Introduction to Macroeconomics class, it was in chapter 1. So, I guess anyone younger who is going for a business/finance/economics/accounting background should have encountered it. I'd heard it before (I'm an older student). But, Macroeconomics is a freshman/sophomore requirement for alot of different degrees. It's still being taught.

Yep. Same Here.

[Sey.Naci]

The expression is intended to focus attention on these two extremes of government attention:


of foreign policy done at the point of a gun (rather than diplomacy)
of domestic policy to ensure that everyone gets the best of the best (butter, as opposed to margarine)

[Shink]

I have an unrelated question: anyone have a link to Ron's recent letter to us that detailed some of his strategy?

[anaconda]

"Guns and Butter" is the age-old terminology for the trade-off between military spending vs. domestic spending.

[Shaun]

It's a good example of WHY the American people don't get RP's message.
5% of people hearing the statement " Guns and Butter" understood it.
The rest were lost.
It's why he needs a communication coach.
Oh well.
He did great in that debate, he absolutely slammed McVietnam on his 100 year comment.
Probably his best moment in any debate..

[Trigonx]

its a great term to use, older folks who grew up in those times remember the phrase and understand exactly what RP is saying and is most likely helping him with the older voter category.

[AggieforPaul]

"Guns" is a symbol of military spending, while "butter" is a symbol of domestic spending.

[RonPaulFTFW]

yay wikipedia.
it shows how in the know paul is.


Origins of the term

One theory on the origin of the concept comes from William Jennings Bryan's resignation as secretary of state in the Wilson Administration. At the outbreak of World War I, the leading global exporter of nitrates for gunpowder was Chile. Chile had maintained neutrality during the war and provided nearly all America's nitrate requirements, as it was also the principal ingredient of chemical fertilizer in farming. The actual export product was guano containing high levels of phosphorus and nitrogen.

With substantial popular opinion running against U.S. entry into the war, the Bryan resignation and peace campaign (joined prominently with Henry Ford's efforts) became a banner for local against national interests. Bryan was no more pro-German than Wilson; his motivation was to expose and publicize what he considered to be an unconscionable public policy.

The National Defense Act of 1916 directed the President to select a site for the artificial production of nitrates. It was not until September 1917, several months after America entered the war, that Wilson selected Muscle Shoals, Alabama, after more than a year of competition among competing political rivals. A deadlock in Congress was broken when Senator Ellison D. Smith from South Carolina sponsored the National Defense Act of 1916 that directed "the Secretary of Agriculture to manufacture nitrates for fertilizers in peace and munitions in war at water power sites designated by the President". This was presented by the news media as "guns and butter."

[edit] Actual application

Perhaps the best known actual usage (in translation) was in Nazi Germany. In a speech on January 17, 1936, Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels stated: "We can do without butter, but, despite all our love of peace, not without arms. One cannot shoot with butter, but with guns." Sometime in the summer of the same year, Hermann Goering announced in a speech, "Guns will make us powerful; butter will only make us fat."[2]

In state-run economies (where GDP is controlled by a central planning authority or the government), as well as nations with consistently stagnant or declining GDP, the "guns and butter" model becomes real.

Another use of the term was Margaret Thatcher's reference in a speech that, "The Soviets put guns over butter, but we put almost everything over guns."

The concept also has application in many turn based strategy games and some real time strategy games, as many such games entail simulated simplistic economies involving player decisions to invest in infrastructure and resource gathering or military units.

[Rhys]

He's talking to seniors. chill.

we're not his only demographic.

however, the notion that we are is why we seem to be.

[mwkaufman]

Guns and butter were like the first day of high school economics for me in 2003. Though I think we watched a video on it from like the 80's. :p