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Cinderella
01-30-2008, 11:24 AM
i have someone who is all for mccain.....im always defending ron paul....can someone tell me what i can say to people who support mccain??

what will ron paul do to cut the bidget??

mccains bad points??

romneys bad points???

please help....

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 11:26 AM
bump

Janet0116
01-30-2008, 11:26 AM
Well first, we need to know why they are 'all for mccain'?

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 11:30 AM
they say because hes against abortion....favors spending cuts.....this person is spoon fed by the msm and everything i say about paul he just doesnt get it......he thinks mccain is the next american hero

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 11:30 AM
I think McCain is mentally unstable....shell shocked.
He is a war hero who experienced the unimaginable as a POW, but unfortunately...that does not make you fit to be President.

Our government is trying to take away veterans 2nd amendment rights if they sought mental help after returning home. I don't know if John McCain ever saw a psychologist after his ordeal but I am willing to bet that he did. Therefore, our government doesn't think John McCain can be trusted with his 2nd amendment rights....why would they trust him as President?

acptulsa
01-30-2008, 11:32 AM
He's not conservative. He's a spendthrift. He knows nothing about the economy. He wants to keep us in Iraq for centuries--and by then all the oil will be gone. Besides, if he bankrupts us buying weapons for Iraq the terrorists win! He thinks ex-head of the K.G.B. Vladimir Putin is the "president" of Germany--and I'm sure that's not why Ronald Reagan had them "tear down this [Berlin] Wall", because he can't control his temper, because there's some doubt about whether he cooperated with the North Vietnamese when he was a P.O.W., and because Hillary Clinton actually likes him. In short he's incompetent, ignorant and easily inflamed--and it shows. He couldn't win crossover votes in the general election if the Democrats nominated a bin Laden.

Did I miss anything, people?

Cleaner44
01-30-2008, 11:32 AM
McCain is weak on the border and the border is a matter of national security.

McCain is pretending he has a magic secret plan for Iraq but then why is he not sharing it with Bush so we can save soldiers lives now.

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 11:34 AM
where will Dr. Paul cut the budget??

acptulsa
01-30-2008, 11:35 AM
Paul is against abortion and will not only cut deeper domestically, but will cut this war spending, too. He will cut the Dept. of Education, the USDA, FDA or both, the DEA, may cut the Department of Energy, will possibly eliminate Health and Human Services, and just about every other agency that mainly takes our money, skims a cut off the top, and redistributes it to the states to spend.

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 11:36 AM
they say because hes against abortion...
http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/John_McCain_Abortion.htm

John McCain on Abortion

Abortion OK if raped; and no testing for rape

McCain was asked whether he would reinstate the Reagan era rule that prevents international family planning clinics that receive federal funds from discussing abortion. “I don’t believe they should advocate abortion with my tax dollars,” McCain said, adding that he opposed abortion except in cases of rape and incest. He was then asked how he would determine whether someone had in fact been raped. McCain responded, “I think that I would give the benefit of the doubt to the person who alleges that.”
Source: New York Times, p. A17 Jan 25, 2000

Supports fetal tissue research; against over-intensity

McCain was asked how he could be anti-abortion and still vote to support fetal tissue research. He supports fetal-tissue research, McCain said, because it has helped make progress against Parkinson’s disease. McCain concluded that abortion rights and anti-abortion activists should cooperate on issues of foster care and adoption. He had made his decision on abortion, he said, “after a lot of study, consultation, and a lot of prayer.” He added, “I’d like to have less intensity on this issue.”
Source: Boston Globe, p. A11 Jan 22, 2000


Wants Roe vs. Wade made irrelevant, but would not repeal it (Ron Paul would repeal it)

McCain said, “I’d love to see a point where Roe vs. Wade is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary. But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe vs. Wade, which would then force women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations.” A spokesman said that McCain “has a 17-year voting record of supporting efforts to overturn Roe vs. Wade. He does that currently, and will continue to do that as president.”
Source: Ron Fournier, Associated Press Aug 24, 1999

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 11:37 AM
where will Dr. Paul cut the budget??

He would end all aid to foreign countries.

This is probably where your friend will bring up Israel. Remind them that we give 3x the amount of money to the Arab countries....and that would be gone too. Israel comes out ahead.

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 11:40 AM
He would end all aid to foreign countries.


anything else?? i kno he has talked about ending the dept of education and abolishing the irs and a fair tax and ending the wars and bringing troops back home...but when i present this it scares people who dont kno any better...i need a good argument that will not scare people into thinking ron paul is a radical....for example i bring up him ending the dept of education and they flip out and begin talking about the schools and what will they do etc....i need an explanation for dummies:rolleyes:

extrmmxer
01-30-2008, 11:45 AM
McCain - voted against tax cuts twice, wants amnesty, want 100 year war in Iraq with no answers to pay for it, wouldn't hesitate to issue a draft, ready to bomb Iran and block investigations and the releasing of POW files from vietnam.. The list goes on and on.

Romney - wants social medicine (similar to democrats, which would increase taxes, Was for abortion now he's against it, (flip flopper) He's for gun control, He's for the patriot act, wants to keep troops in Iraq, Before going to war he'd discuss it with his attorney's.........lol which means he doesn't know or understands our constitution. The list goes on and on

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 11:45 AM
bump

Rahl
01-30-2008, 11:47 AM
i have someone who is all for mccain.....im always defending ron paul....can someone tell me what i can say to people who support mccain??

what will ron paul do to cut the bidget??

mccains bad points??

romneys bad points???

please help....

sorry but you won't convert people if you don't know the issues of the candidates yet alone the one you seem to support.

don't wanna sound rude but people really have to study for themself so they can speak ron pauls message with their own words.

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 11:48 AM
anything else?? i kno he has talked about ending the dept of education and abolishing the irs and a fair tax and ending the wars and bringing troops back home...but when i present this it scares people who dont kno any better...i need a good argument that will not scare people into thinking ron paul is a radical....for example i bring up him ending the dept of education and they flip out and begin talking about the schools and what will they do etc....i need an explanation for dummies:rolleyes:

Make sure your friend knows that The Department of Education was created in the 1980s!!!!

http://www.ed.gov/about/landing.jhtml?src=gu
OVERVIEW

ED was created in 1980 by combining offices from several federal agencies. ED's mission is to promote student achievement and preparation for global competitiveness by fostering educational excellence and ensuring equal access. ED's 4,500 employees and $71.5 billion budget are dedicated to:

• Establishing policies on federal financial aid for education, and distributing as well as monitoring those funds.
• Collecting data on America's schools and disseminating research.
• Focusing national attention on key educational issues.
• Prohibiting discrimination and ensuring equal access to education.

http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/mission/mission.html

Mission Statement

Congress established the U.S. Department of Education (ED) on May 4, 1980, in the Department of Education Organization Act (Public Law 96-88 of October 1979). Under this law, ED's mission is to:

Strengthen the Federal commitment to assuring access to equal educational opportunity for every individual;

Supplement and complement the efforts of states, the local school systems and other instrumentalities of the states, the private sector, public and private nonprofit educational research institutions, community-based organizations, parents, and students to improve the quality of education;

Encourage the increased involvement of the public, parents, and students in Federal education programs;

Promote improvements in the quality and usefulness of education through Federally supported research, evaluation, and sharing of information;

Improve the coordination of Federal education programs;

Improve the management of Federal education activities; and

Increase the accountability of Federal education programs to the President, the Congress, and the public.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________

The main purpose of the Department of Education is to maintain the Department of Education.

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 11:50 AM
sorry but you won't convert people if you don't know the issues of the candidates yet alone the one you seem to support.

don't wanna sound rude but people really have to study for themself so they can speak ron pauls message with their own words.


listen i do kno how ron stands on the issues...the problem is that people get scared and think that ron paul will make us vulnerable....they would rather be spoon fed by the media and have the gov think for them....im asking for a softer argument...something that appeals to sheep

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 11:52 AM
As far as foreign policy, use the term "armed neutrality"

Remind your friend that Ron Paul is a non-interventionist, NOT an isolationist.

Ron Paul has no problem going to war...if it is justified and is declared by Congress. And in that case, he would go to war and go hard. BUT....and this is key....especially if your friend is a Christian who believes in the "Christian Just War Theory"....we simply cannot accept that America will attack a country that has not attacked us. (THAT is the radical notion-that we would attack someone who has done nothing to us)

Ron Paul is not anti-war....just anti pre-emptive war (as well as war not approved by Congress aka The War in Iraq)

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 11:55 AM
listen i do kno how ron stands on the issues...the problem is that people get scared and think that ron paul will make us vulnerable....they would rather be spoon fed by the media and have the gov think for them....im asking for a softer argument...something that appeals to sheep

All of the troops that come home would be used to protect our own borders. With all of our troops overseas, we are actually more vulnerable to an attack. Have your friend think about that. If, say, Russia ( just an example) attacked us right now....what would happen? Our troops are not here to protect us.

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 11:56 AM
Does your friend like Bush? If not, show them this :):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/mccain_bush-hug-713122-1.jpg

Grandson of Liberty
01-30-2008, 11:57 AM
As for education, let your friend know that local communities have a better idea on the best way to educate their kids than the bureaucrats in D.C. do.

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 11:57 AM
All of the troops that come home would be used to protect our own borders. With all of our troops overseas, we are actually more vulnerable to an attack. Have your friend think about that. If, say, Russia ( just an example) attacked us right now....what would happen? Our troops are not here to protect us.


thank you for your help!! any other info would be a plus!!!;)

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 12:00 PM
bump

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 12:03 PM
Remember to tell your friend that Ron Paul receives the most money from both retired and active military....yes more than John McCain.
http://ronpauldelaware.wordpress.com/2007/07/16/military-favors-ron-paul-over-mccain/
The US Federal Election Commission has released the Selected Presidential Reports for the 2007 July Quarterly, and there are a few surprises. No surprise, of course, is that people in the armed services and veterans overwhelmingly support the Republican Party. However, after digging through individual candidates’ contributions by employers, we find an elating (or disturbing, if you’re rooting for Rudy McRomney) trend. The breakdown? Here you go.

Army Navy USAF USMC VET TOTAL
Ron Paul 6975 7765 4650 1500 1250 22140
McCain 6225 6480 1570 1600 800 16675
Romney 2051 0 1500 0 1000 4551

This table expresses in dollars the total campaign contributions that each candidate has received from individuals who marked “Air Force,” “US Marines,” “USMC,” “Army,” “Navy,” or some other such permutation of letters as their employer that gives the appearance that they are a member of the armed services. The “veteran” column was derived by looking for “retired ______,” “______ retired,” or anything containing the word veteran, with the exception of Veterans’ Affairs (or the like).

acptulsa
01-30-2008, 12:03 PM
anything else?? i kno he has talked about ending the dept of education and abolishing the irs and a fair tax and ending the wars and bringing troops back home...but when i present this it scares people who dont kno any better...i need a good argument that will not scare people into thinking ron paul is a radical....for example i bring up him ending the dept of education and they flip out and begin talking about the schools and what will they do etc....i need an explanation for dummies:rolleyes:

What will the schools do without a federal department of education. Just what they did before it was created--thrive!

The ED was created to run the student loan programs when Reagan ended the grants, and to try to force the states into standardized curricula. In other words, as I said before (and it's an argument that works), it's there to take our tax dollars, take a cut off the top for the federal politicians, and redistribute the money to the states which do the actual work! And 90% of Paul's federal spending cuts are along these same lines--which will allow the states to do things far, far more efficiently and effectively. There will be no more hiring dozens and dozens of people just to handle the paperwork that certify that the states are in compliance with federal nitpick standards--which they have to do now just to make sure that their own citizens get (most of) their own money back!

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 12:07 PM
Does your friend know how high the suicide rate is right now with our soldiers?
_________________________________________________
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/15/AR2007081502027.html
Army Suicides Highest in 26 Years
By PAULINE JELINEK
The Associated Press
Thursday, August 16, 2007; 2:54 AM

WASHINGTON -- Army soldiers committed suicide last year at the highest rate in 26 years, and more than a quarter did so while serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new military report.

The report, obtained by The Associated Press ahead of its scheduled release Thursday, found there were 99 confirmed suicides among active duty soldiers during 2006, up from 88 the previous year and the highest number since the 102 suicides in 1991 at the time of the Persian Gulf War.

The suicide rate for the Army has fluctuated over the past 26 years, from last year's high of 17.3 per 100,000 to a low of 9.1 per 100,000 in 2001.

Last year, "Iraq was the most common deployment location for both (suicides) and attempts," the report said.

The 99 suicides included 28 soldiers deployed to the two wars and 71 who weren't. About twice as many women serving in Iraq and Afghanistan committed suicide as did women not sent to war, the report said.

Preliminary numbers for the first half of this year indicate the number of suicides could decline across the service in 2007 but increase among troops serving in the wars, officials said.

The increases for 2006 came as Army officials worked to set up a number of new and stronger programs for providing mental health care to a force strained by the longer-than-expected war in Iraq and the global counterterrorism war entering its sixth year.

Failed personal relationships, legal and financial problems and the stress of their jobs were factors motivating the soldiers to commit suicide, according to the report.

"In addition, there was a significant relationship between suicide attempts and number of days deployed" in Iraq, Afghanistan or nearby countries where troops are participating in the war effort, it said. The same pattern seemed to hold true for those who not only attempted, but succeeded in killing themselves.

There also "was limited evidence to support the view that multiple ... deployments are a risk factor for suicide behaviors," it said.

About a quarter of those who killed themselves had a history of at least one psychiatric disorder. Of those, about 20 percent had been diagnosed with a mood disorder such as bipolar disorder and/or depression; and 8 percent had been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, including post traumatic stress disorder _ one of the signature injuries of the conflict in Iraq.

Firearms were the most common method of suicide. Those who attempted suicide but didn't succeed tended more often to take overdoses and cut themselves.

In a service of more than a half million troop, the 99 suicides amounted to a rate of 17.3 per 100,000 _ the highest in the past 26 years, the report said. The average rate over those years has been 12.3 per 100,000.

The rate for those serving in the wars stayed about the same, 19.4 per 100,000 in 2006, compared with 19.9 in 2005.

The Army said the information was compiled from reports collected as part of its suicide prevention program _ reports required for all "suicide-related behaviors that result in death, hospitalization or evacuation" of the soldier. It can take considerable time to investigate a suicide and, in fact, the Army said that in addition to the 99 confirmed suicides last year, there are two other deaths suspected as suicides in which investigations were pending.

___

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 12:09 PM
Is your friend part of the "They attacked us because we are free" crowd?

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 12:10 PM
Nat Pine (1:01:59 PM): Well look Bush did not start bombing Iraq until after 9/11 the problem was that it was unclear where Al Quida was. He should have simply stuck to Afghanistan. However you do run into the problem of who do you attack. If several different countries are harboring terrorists who have attacked the US then technically you can never go after them because the countries they are in haven't officially attacked us. They say they have no control over the terrorists and you say they do. Who is right? In the middle east the only country that officially acts is Israel.
Nat Pine (1:03:18 PM): The Dept. of Education has a small budget compared with the other depts. And that dept. has greatly aided the development of better education for minorities
Nat Pine (1:04:23 PM): Poor local school districts would have poor schools and wealthy districts would have good ones. RP preaches a return to the good old days of segregation



............................these are his arguments

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 12:19 PM
I think Bush was bombing Iraq well before 9/11 (Bush Sr.?)...but I don't have the "facts" on that. Someone else know?

Rahl
01-30-2008, 12:20 PM
an answer on "education for dummies" could be something like that

"Let's wait a minute, thats interesting. Are you calling your own parents dumb ? Because thats what you do when you say we can't have good education without the department."

if the "sheep" is old enough you can spin it into "are you calling yourself dumb?" (depends on who you speak to of course) :).

BreakYourChains
01-30-2008, 12:23 PM
bump

acptulsa
01-30-2008, 12:23 PM
There is ample evidence that Bush's runup to war in Iraq was based not on mistakes, but on lies. He was mad at Hussein for threatening his daddy's life. If our foreign policy reflected the morals and values of the American people, this would have been prevented.
Just because Dr. Paul doesn't believe in taking it to other nations preemtively doesn't mean he'll be one bit soft on security. The Constitution demands the president provide for the common defense, and as president Dr. Paul will.
The Department of Education has done little but deprive the states of funds because they need funds to support their massive bureaucracy. There is generally little enough left over that the poor districts come out the same and the rich districts support the department rather than providing superior education. Look at the numbers.
The courts ended segregation, not the Department of Education. This argument is so ignorant as to be goofy. The issue was decided before the department was created!
The Department of Education is just a drop in the bucket, true. However, there are opportunities for savings in many areas, not just education. There's no reason for the federal government to take our money just so they can pay people to interfere with our states' normal functions. The states wind up spending the money anyway--better that they spend it on getting the job done, rather than doing federal paperwork just so they don't get cut off from the dole.

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 12:27 PM
Nat Pine (1:03:18 PM): The Dept. of Education has a small budget compared with the other depts.

http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/budget07/summary/edlite-section1.html
FY 2007 budget summary
Discretionary $54.4 billion
Mandatory $9 billion
TOTAL: $63.4 billion

Remind your friend that the money doesn't disappear...it merely doesn't leave the state from whence it came.

acptulsa
01-30-2008, 12:28 PM
Oh, and if he questions whether U.S. foreign policy reflects the values and morals of the American people, ask him if he saw The Last King of Scotland. Then tell him we supported Idi Amin "Dada" (on whom the movie was based) as well as the Marcoses, the Shah of Iran, "Papa" Doc Duvalier, Noriega, Saddam Hussein himself, and a host of other brutal, bloody dictators. Then ask him if these people reflect his values.

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 12:29 PM
he argues that the DOE is not that large of a dept and will not make nor break the budget....

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 12:33 PM
Nat Pine (1:01:59 PM): However you do run into the problem of who do you attack. If several different countries are harboring terrorists who have attacked the US then technically you can never go after them because the countries they are in haven't officially attacked us. They say they have no control over the terrorists and you say they do. Who is right? In the middle east the only country that officially acts is Israel.

If we become a country that attacks first and asks questions later, it will be the end of us.

Remember the definition of terrorism:
Terrorism, in the modern sense,[2] is violence, the threat of violence, or other harmful acts committed for political or ideological goals.[3]

And think about what your friend thinks we, as a country, should do.

Also, remember that we are killing Iraqi civilians. A lot of civilians.
Ask your friend how many innocent people have to die on both sides before our own "political or ideological goals" are met.

patriot4paul
01-30-2008, 12:33 PM
i have someone who is all for mccain.....im always defending ron paul....can someone tell me what i can say to people who support mccain??

what will ron paul do to cut the bidget??

mccains bad points??

romneys bad points???

please help....

Check out www.knowbeforeyouvote.com. It compares Dr. Paul to all other candidates, showing where they stand on the issues.

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 12:34 PM
Is your friend part of the "They attacked us because we are free" crowd?

??

angrydragon
01-30-2008, 12:37 PM
http://www.ntu.org/main/press.php?PressID=991&org_name=NTUF

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 12:38 PM
http://www.ntu.org/main/press.php?PressID=991&org_name=NTUF

Study: Presidential Frontrunners Would Boost Federal Budget by Range of $7 Billion to $287 Billion Annually

(Alexandria, VA) -- Presidential contenders have been busy portraying their political differences from others inside and outside of their parties, but when it comes to fiscal policy, ideological labels don't necessarily apply. That's just one finding of a comprehensive study from the National Taxpayers Union Foundation (NTUF), which provides cost estimates -- based on hard data -- for more than 450 of the major candidates’ proposals that would affect the federal budget.

"Our analyses hopefully will help taxpayers distinguish political posturing from concrete proposals -- many of which would significantly change the size and make-up of the federal budget," NTUF Senior Policy Analyst Demian Brady said. "As the public-policy debate on the campaign trail nears its 'Super Tuesday' peak next week, we're providing Americans with the chance to systematically examine how future budget plans may affect their own future finances."

NTUF assumed the most conservative cost estimates of federal outlays based on a variety of sources, including the candidates' own projections; summaries from the Congressional Budget Office, Congressional Research Service, and the White House Office of Management and Budget; and results from equivalent legislation from NTUF's BillTally cost accounting system. Among the general findings of the eight reports, analyzing six Republicans and two Democrats:

The eight candidates proposed a combined total of 189 items that would increase federal spending, 24 items that would decrease it, and 238 items whose budgetary impacts are unknown -- in addition to dozens of sub-items further detailing program components. The four respective frontrunners in the two parties (John McCain, Mitt Romney, Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama), proposed overall fiscal policy agendas whose net effect would raise annual federal outlays between $6.9 billion and $287.0 billion.
The top-tier GOP candidates often portrayed as "conservative" (Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee) actually called for significantly larger spending hikes ($19.5 billion and $54.2 billion, respectively), than the so-called "moderate conservative" (John McCain, $6.9 billion).
Among Democrats, Barack Obama, often described as ideologically more "moderate" than Hillary Clinton, actually has the larger agenda of the two ($287.0 billion vs. $218.2 billion).
Defense-related spending items received the highest proposed spending increases among Republican candidates. Huckabee and Romney, for example, offered $67.2 billion and $40.6 billion, respectively. Among Democrats, Clinton's biggest boost goes toward health care ($113.6 billion) and Obama's for economy, transportation, and infrastructure ($105.0 billion).
Two of the eight candidates proposed sufficient spending cuts that more than offset their new spending plans: Rudy Giuliani (-$1.4 billion) and Ron Paul (-$150.1 billion).
NTUF is the nonpartisan research arm of the 362,000-member National Taxpayers Union, a citizen group founded in 1969. Note: Due to time constraints, NTUF staff were unable to complete a report for Democratic candidate John Edwards. For the full reports, graphs of the data, and audio analysis from NTUF staff, visit www.ntu.org.

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 12:40 PM
??


he believes we were attacked because "a bunch of derranged terrorists got extremely lucky..."

acptulsa
01-30-2008, 12:42 PM
Tell him whether the Education Department (which is the ED--the DOE is Energy--which give you an idea of how many departments we're talking about while he fixates on one) breaks the budget isn't the point. Ask him if he's seen the building in D.C. Tell him that the heating and cooling costs of the place alone could build at least two or three schools in poor districts every single year--never mind the salaries of all the people inside and all the new computers they buy and etc. Tell him that the people on the state level who have full time jobs just keeping up with the paperwork the ED requires could staff an extra classroom per every other district in the state. Ask him if maintaining that federal bureaucracy is more important to him than the people on the ground actually educating children!

And remind him again that this is just one of the unnecessary bureaucracies in Washington.

acptulsa
01-30-2008, 12:44 PM
he believes we were attacked because "a bunch of derranged terrorists got extremely lucky..."

A bunch of deranged Saudi terrorists--and despite all their oil money, we give them three times as much aid per year as we do Israel!

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 12:49 PM
bump

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 12:53 PM
he believes we were attacked because "a bunch of derranged terrorists got extremely lucky..."

good. There is hope then.

Make sure he knows their motivation:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,,845725,00.html

Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'


Online document: the full text of Osama bin Laden's "letter to the American people", reported in today's Observer. The letter first appeared on the internet in Arabic and has since been translated and circulated by Islamists in Britain.

Observer Worldview

Sunday November 24, 2002
Observer.co.uk

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:
(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
(Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

The Nation of honour and respect:

"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:

"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

angrydragon
01-30-2008, 12:54 PM
http://www.ntu.org/images/2008pres_total.png
From NTU.

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 12:56 PM
Also remember that "terrorism" is a tactic and as Ron Paul says, "You can't declare war on a tactic".

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 12:58 PM
http://www.ntu.org/images/2008pres_total.png
From NTU.

That graph is most excellent.

angrydragon
01-30-2008, 01:00 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=96745

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=90254

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=66352

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=63142

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=61342

SeanEdwards
01-30-2008, 01:04 PM
McCain is the gauranteed war candidate. McCain believes war is what makes a society noble. He literally can not imagine an America at peace, nor does he want to imagine such a thing. Peace is a bad word to McCain.

scandinaviany3
01-30-2008, 01:05 PM
i have someone who is all for mccain.....im always defending ron paul....can someone tell me what i can say to people who support mccain??

what will ron paul do to cut the bidget??

mccains bad points??

romneys bad points???

please help....

just look up mccain vs mcain or double talk express...mccain is a horrible con man.

All the party knows this and wont support him.

acptulsa
01-30-2008, 01:06 PM
Well, Cinderella, has he begged you to stop confusing him with facts yet?

Mark
01-30-2008, 01:06 PM
Here's a site I just started developing a few minutes ago to show that Ron is the TRUE Conservative Alternative:

ConservativeAlternative.com (http://conservativealternative.com/)

or:

ConAlt.org (http://conalt.org/)

.

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 01:12 PM
Well, Cinderella, has he begged you to stop confusing him with facts yet?


take a look:

Nat Pine (1:11:32 PM): But I could understand reducing the DOE and doing spot checking rather than what's going on now
Nat Pine (1:12:05 PM): also it would probably be best to have standardized testing using the DOE to set minimum standards
Nat Pine (1:12:29 PM): and then looking at the schools which didn't meet those standards
Nat Pine (1:12:42 PM): It would reduce the size of the DOE
Nat Pine (1:13:45 PM): and you can't make make the same statements about the rest of the Federal Departments as you do about the
Nat Pine (1:13:49 PM): DOE
LiL BiaTcH 624 (1:20:19 PM): The Dept. of Education has done it's job, and done it well. The dumbing down of America is complete.
Nat Pine (1:20:51 PM): yeah sure make stuff up
LiL BiaTcH 624 (1:21:48 PM): oh really?? where do we stand on education compared to the world?? if the doe was soo great we should be at the top of the list....
Nat Pine (1:23:45 PM): I didn't say we didn't have good education without it
Nat Pine (1:23:54 PM): but good education for whom?
Nat Pine (1:24:12 PM): white schools really haven't been hurt
Nat Pine (1:24:24 PM): black schools have been impoved
Nat Pine (1:25:00 PM): look in terms of size and buget it's just not that large a department
Nat Pine (1:25:27 PM): do u think it makes or breaks the US Federal buget?


Nat Pine (1:37:46 PM): see the animated movie Persopolis about a young woman's adventures there
Nat Pine (1:38:22 PM): no we were attacked because a bunch of deranged terrorists got extremely lucky
Nat Pine (1:38:50 PM): they were going to attack Paris but there was a strike by the air traffic controllers
Nat Pine (1:56:16 PM): I agree they were Saudi's but they oppose the Saudi Royal Family with whom Bush is especially chummy. I never said I was a fan of the war in Iraq by the way. Afghanistan is a different matter. There a good chunk of the people support us. Look the problem in the Middle East is that no one is especially loyal the their country with the exception of Isreal, Iran, and to some extent Egypt and Lebenon. They are loyal to their Clans. And Clans are hard to fight. Which is why Cheney is in favor of torture.

...................sorry i kno its long.....im beginning to think hes a lost cause....but i dont give up....i didnt post what i said because its just a mirror of what we have been talking about here on this thread....

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 01:16 PM
"white schools really haven't been hurt
Nat Pine (1:24:24 PM): black schools have been improved"

Ask him what he means by that

poor does not equal black

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 01:17 PM
http://sitemaker.umich.edu/salas.356/files/poverty_rates_of_rich_countries.bmp

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 01:19 PM
wait wait....theres more...........

Nat Pine (11:38:56 AM): S'up?
LiL BiaTcH 624 (11:39:24 AM): nothing
Nat Pine (11:40:58 AM): so it looks like john McCain is finally gonna get to be the Republican nominee for president
LiL BiaTcH 624 (11:41:54 AM): still too early to decide that...
Nat Pine (11:43:38 AM): well it's really looking that way
Nat Pine (11:49:40 AM): so how's school going
LiL BiaTcH 624 (12:09:54 PM): realize that there are like 2000 or so delegates left to win. The first states are media blitz states. Nothing more.
Nat Pine went idle at 12:15:34 PM.
Nat Pine returned at 12:16:35 PM.
LiL BiaTcH 624 (12:17:15 PM): he is pro Globalist.
He is pro war.
He knows squat about the economy.
He is like the others, not a true Republican, more like a Democrat.
He voted against making tax cuts permenant, he is aligned with the dems on social issues.

He will offer 4 more years of Bush, or worse.
Nat Pine (12:20:20 PM): he's against abortion so I don't think he's a Dem, he favors spending cuts, he wants a balanced budget just like Ron Paul, who has never said where he will cut the budjet
LiL BiaTcH 624 (12:20:36 PM): He was born in Panama, which brings up the question of eligibility
LiL BiaTcH 624 (12:20:47 PM): ron paul is very clear as to where he would make cuts
Nat Pine (12:21:03 PM): show me
LiL BiaTcH 624 (12:42:06 PM): he would end all aide to foreign countries
Nat Pine (12:42:37 PM): that's not necessarily a smart move
Nat Pine (12:42:47 PM): with that aid we get influence
Nat Pine (12:42:59 PM): sometimes it pays to have someone in your pocket
Nat Pine (12:43:08 PM): take Pakistan
Nat Pine (12:43:14 PM): for example
Nat Pine (12:43:56 PM): the fact is that we have some pull there despite a lot of people there who dislike us
Nat Pine (12:44:22 PM): were it not for that aid we'd have no pull and the country would be in worse shape than it is
Nat Pine (12:44:44 PM): now we do provide a lot of defense for Japan
Nat Pine (12:45:47 PM): which we might not need to but do you want to see a Japan with Nuclear weapons
Nat Pine (12:46:05 PM): Korea doesn't
Nat Pine (12:46:18 PM): South East asia doesn't
LiL BiaTcH 624 (12:46:23 PM): McCain - voted against tax cuts twice, wants amnesty, want 100 year war in Iraq with no answers to pay for it, wouldn't hesitate to issue a draft, ready to bomb Iran and block investigations and the releasing of POW files from vietnam.. The list goes on and on.


LiL BiaTcH 624 (12:46:35 PM): chill out with all the IMs
Nat Pine (12:46:52 PM): ok well you did IM me
Nat Pine (12:47:02 PM): and I was responding to your arguements
LiL BiaTcH 624 (12:55:10 PM): Ron Paul is a non-interventionist, NOT an isolationist.
Ron Paul has no problem going to war...if it is justified and is declared by Congress. And in that case, he would go to war and go hard. BUT....and this is key....especially if you believe in the "Christian Just War Theory"....we simply cannot accept that America will attack a country that has not attacked us.
Ron Paul is not anti-war....just anti pre-emptive war (as well as war not approved by Congress aka The War in Iraq)
LiL BiaTcH 624 (12:55:30 PM): jeez u dont even give me a chance to form a rebuttle...u keep going and going
Nat Pine (12:56:26 PM): I'm a little energizer bunny, and this applies to other things not just politics
LiL BiaTcH 624 (1:01:00 PM): another dept he would get rid of is the dept of education
LiL BiaTcH 624 (1:01:33 PM): As for education, local communities have a better idea on the best way to educate their kids than the bureaucrats in D.C. do.



Nat Pine (1:01:59 PM): Well look Bush did not start bombing Iraq until after 9/11 the problem was that it was unclear where Al Quida was. He should have simply stuck to Afghanistan. However you do run into the problem of who do you attack. If several different countries are harboring terrorists who have attacked the US then technically you can never go after them because the countries they are in haven't officially attacked us. They say they have no control over the terrorists and you say they do. Who is right? In the middle east the only country that officially acts is Israel.

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 01:19 PM
http://nces.ed.gov/Pressrelease/reform/images/figureH.gif

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 01:22 PM
Here's a site I just started developing a few minutes ago to show that Ron is the TRUE Conservative Alternative:

ConservativeAlternative.com (http://conservativealternative.com/)

or:

ConAlt.org (http://conalt.org/)

That's a great site, Mark!

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 01:24 PM
"Nat Pine (12:42:47 PM): with that aid we get influence
Nat Pine (12:42:59 PM): sometimes it pays to have someone in your pocket
Nat Pine (12:43:08 PM): take Pakistan
Nat Pine (12:43:14 PM): for example
Nat Pine (12:43:56 PM): the fact is that we have some pull there despite a lot of people there who dislike us
Nat Pine (12:44:22 PM): were it not for that aid we'd have no pull and the country would be in worse shape than it is"


LOL....ask him if he thinks Pakistan is doing well right now. What has our "pull" in Pakistan gotten us?

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 01:26 PM
LOL....ask him if he thinks Pakistan is doing well right now. What has our "pull" in Pakistan gotten us?

lol.........he went back to work....:D............and signed off.........hehehe..........hopefully i gave him something to think about

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 01:26 PM
"Nat Pine (12:44:44 PM): now we do provide a lot of defense for Japan
Nat Pine (12:45:47 PM): which we might not need to but do you want to see a Japan with Nuclear weapons
Nat Pine (12:46:05 PM): Korea doesn't
Nat Pine (12:46:18 PM): South East asia doesn't"

If Korea and South East Asia are worried about Japan, why can't they take care of it themselves?

hillertexas
01-30-2008, 01:27 PM
lol.........he went back to work....:D............and signed off.........hehehe..........hopefully i gave him something to think about

YEA!!! He pulled a Romney.

Tough questions = "I gotta go"

Well done, Cinderella. :)

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 01:31 PM
i kno lmfao....im gonna attack him later!! lol...he always says he agrees with some of Dr. Pauls ideas but doesnt see proof or a plan...doesnt think he has "electablity".....and believes mccain is the man for the job......ill keep working him....i like a challenge....any other ideas would be a big plus....i have converteted many people but this one just wont budge....and i cant back down...lol

VoluntaryMan
01-30-2008, 01:32 PM
i have someone who is all for mccain.....im always defending ron paul....can someone tell me what i can say to people who support mccain??

what will ron paul do to cut the bidget??

mccains bad points??

romneys bad points???

please help....

Posted to another thread, but applicable:


1) Call MUCKain out for his open borders stance, pro amnesty for illegals stance, his globalist tendencies, his ignorance of economics, and his chicken little environmentalism. Tell MUCKain that we've found his perfect running mate: Hillary.

2) Call Rat-boy Willard out for being an empty-headed gameshow host, who can't decide where he stands on any issue, until he reads a poll or listens to a focus group, whose biggest supporter is his own over-inflated sense of self-importance, aided by a personal bank account fattened by his father's political contacts. A man whose only economic experience is acquiring undervalued companies, eliminating half the jobs, then re-selling the companies at a profit. If that's the type of "economic experience" Rat-boy intends to bring to the Oval Office, then America should be very afraid, because we've already shipped half our jobs overseas, and are currently importing cheap, illegal labor to take the other half, something that Rat-boy should personally know something about. Also, suggest that if Rat-boy is also unwilling to drill Anwar for oil, perhaps he'd let us refine the oil in his hair.

3) Call out Tax-Hike Mike for his come-lately tax-payer's friend campaign positions. Ask him, if he's a dedicated pro-lifer, why he accepts money from companies interested in embryonic stemcell research. Ask him if he knows where embryos come from. Applaud him for his dedication to gun rights, then ask him where his record is, to prove that he's a true 2nd Amendment champion. Ask him why, when he was busy securing the release from prison of rapists and murderers, and pardoning celebrities, he never pardoned or sought the release of non-violent persons unjustly convicted under 2nd Amendment infringements. Also, ask him why he solicits and accepts so many gifts from political cronies. Ask him home much of the money that supporters have contributed to his campaign has gone to line the pockets of family members, and if any of it has found its way into the pockets of that sadistic, psychopathic son of his. Ask if his son's was the type of personality that Hack-copy had in mind, when he wrote his book about kids that kill; ask if it was autobiographical.

Mark
01-30-2008, 01:33 PM
That's a great site, Mark!

Thanks hillertexas!

I think it's a Conservatism Comparison site is a good way to make Conservatives aware of the differences
and how learn Ron is the only TRUE Conservative in the race.

Thanks to the MSM for giving me the idea last night. ;) I knew I was watching them for some reason.

If the OP's friend is a Conservative - a chart like that might be a good way to easily show the differences.

I started a thread for ideas on what to include on the site -

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=1122430

I want to really expand the site so it can be sent to Conservatives voters all over for examination.

Again:


ConservativeAlternative.com (http://conservativealternative.com/)

or:

ConAlt.org (http://conalt.org/)

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 01:38 PM
bump bump bump it up

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 01:47 PM
bump

angrydragon
01-30-2008, 01:51 PM
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/prosperity

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/press-releases/167/don-luskin-named-economic-advisor-to-the-ron-paul-2008-presidential-campaign/

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/press-releases/171/peter-schiff-named-economic-advisor-to-the-ron-paul-2008-presidential-campaign/

Cinderella
01-30-2008, 01:53 PM
thank u for the help!! i will check all the sites

Goldwater Conservative
01-30-2008, 02:37 PM
i have someone who is all for mccain.....im always defending ron paul....can someone tell me what i can say to people who support mccain??

what will ron paul do to cut the bidget??

mccains bad points??

romneys bad points???

please help....

Ron Paul has proposed scaling back the military, which would actually strengthen it. Instead of having our troops and bases stationed around the world, which only costs us hundreds of billions of dollars a year and actually breeds anti-American hostility, he would bring it home where it can actually protect the homeland. Secure our borders, defend the nation. Spreading ourselves thin everywhere else while we're wide open here is a recipe for disaster.

He has also proposed getting entitlement spending under control by letting young people opt out of programs like Social Security and Medicare, thus transitioning away from them while still letting the people who have paid into them get their benefits. He would veto every spending bill that was unconstitutional or not the role of the federal government. And then there's his monetary proposal, which would get this rampant inflation under control, thereby helping poor and working class Americans, which means they would be far less likely to be dependent on the system.

McCain is willing to spend 100 years in Iraq. He has said more wars are very much possible. He has not closed the door on the possibility of a draft. In short, he's an imperialist who thinks it's America's job to police the world and it's Americans' job to die for it. Also, he only talks about cutting pork, which isn't where the real problems face us. That would be entitlement spending, military spending, and the debt. McCain also supported and even sponsored amnesty for illegal immigrants (McCain-Kennedy) and one of the worst pieces of anti-free speech legislation in decades (McCain-Feingold).

Romney was pro-choice when he ran for governor, signed a socialist health care bill into law (and now proposes the same thing for America), and when he ran for Senate bragged about how he was an independent during Reagan/Bush and didn't want to go back to the policies of that era. Maybe he's had a change of heart since he was such a young man at the age of 50 (or older) when he said and did all that, but I think it has more to do with being an opportunist with no real convictions.


they say because hes against abortion....favors spending cuts.....this person is spoon fed by the msm and everything i say about paul he just doesnt get it......he thinks mccain is the next american hero

Paul is also against abortion, but favors making it a state issue. I believe McCain is the same way. Plus, Paul is an obstetrician who's delivered over 4000 babies. Can't get more pro-life than that.


anything else?? i kno he has talked about ending the dept of education and abolishing the irs and a fair tax and ending the wars and bringing troops back home...but when i present this it scares people who dont kno any better...i need a good argument that will not scare people into thinking ron paul is a radical....for example i bring up him ending the dept of education and they flip out and begin talking about the schools and what will they do etc....i need an explanation for dummies:rolleyes:

The DOE only accounts for 10% of education spending. Abolishing it would still leave the 90% that is handled at the state and local level. And with the department abolished, the states would be able to raise that much more revenue on their own (that is, the money doesn't just disappear, it reappears in the pockets of taxpayers, who can then be taxed at a more local level). Education spending should be handled as close to home as possible. Remember, just because it's called the Education Department doesn't actually mean it educates children, just like the Patriot Act isn't actually patriotic.

He's not for the FairTax. He's for cutting spending first so the income tax can phased out. That would mean cutting spending by about 40%. It could be done if we returned to a foreign policy of national defense, which befits a democratic republic, instead of empire, which doesn't. The IRS flagrantly violates our civil liberties and we need to get rid of it, although we do have to get off the income tax first.


listen i do kno how ron stands on the issues...the problem is that people get scared and think that ron paul will make us vulnerable....they would rather be spoon fed by the media and have the gov think for them....im asking for a softer argument...something that appeals to sheep

Ron Paul is the only candidate advocating a strong national DEFENSE. Everyone else thinks we should play Team America, which only means that our troops are over there making more enemies and problems for us (it's called "blowback," it's in the bipartisan 9/11 Commission Report) instead of here ready to respond to attacks and imminent threats. Our foreign policy before 9/11 was aggressive and interventionist, just slightly less so than it is now. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking we were a sleeping isolationist giant. We were playing geopolitical war games long before. It's not our fault as the American people, but it is the fault of our leaders and their bad policies, so we must change course.


he argues that the DOE is not that large of a dept and will not make nor break the budget....

So if we had a thousand "little" agencies that spent a billion each, we shouldn't get rid of any of them because each of them is so little? I agree that the DOE isn't priority one, and so does Paul, but it is one of the first non-major (major being entitlements and the military) expenditures he would look at, and with good reason.


he believes we were attacked because "a bunch of derranged terrorists got extremely lucky..."

Far from it. And even if they were, then there'd be no justification to fight a War on Terror since you can't find a war against crazy or lucky. Then again, you can't fight a War on Terror anyway since terror is a tactic. You can only fight terrorists, but they're far from unified, even the Islamic fundamentalist ones, and don't have a country or economy to back them. Dealing with the threat requires reexamining our foolish foreign policies of the last several decades (as I already pointed out) and emphasizing intelligence-gathering and small-scale operations, not all-out invasions and occupations of entire countries.


i kno lmfao....im gonna attack him later!! lol...he always says he agrees with some of Dr. Pauls ideas but doesnt see proof or a plan...doesnt think he has "electablity".....and believes mccain is the man for the job......ill keep working him....i like a challenge....any other ideas would be a big plus....i have converteted many people but this one just wont budge....and i cant back down...lol

Oddly enough, Paul has laid out all his policies (which are actual changes to the status quo, not the tweaks everyone else is offering) while others largely haven't. Also, while the media would have you believe that Paul's ideas are impractical, it's actually the opposite. Staying the course, as everyone else is basically proposing, will sink us even further in debt and insecurity (financial or otherwise). Trying something new that makes sense and is founded on reason stands a chance of improving our situation. They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different outcome, and that's exactly what the other candidates are giving us.

And he has more "electability" than McCain, since McCain is very unpopular with much of the base, and while he could make up for that with crossover votes, he's going to run into trouble when the country realizes how married he is to continuing and even escalating the Bush policies. In an already anti-Republican, anti-Washington climate, that spells disaster.

Paul, meanwhile, would attract anti-war and pro-civil liberties Democrats and independents without losing the cultural or fiscal conservatives. He might lose some of the neoconservatives (read up on them to see how leftists hijacked the GOP), but he can make up for them with the aforementioned crossover voters and with all the young voters and formerly apathetic voters he'd bring in.