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rp4prez
08-04-2007, 10:02 AM
Anyone have any credible links to the origin of the IRS and the history of the IRS?

I'm needing to do some research and thought I would start here because I'm being attacked about RP wanting to abolish the IRS and the Fed. How do you guys think RP would argue (besides being unconstitutional) for abolishing them?

Ed W
08-04-2007, 10:26 AM
...

David Merrill
08-04-2007, 10:32 AM
Title 12 U.S.C. 411 was enacted for the remedy from the elastic currency of the Fed - on the same day in 1913. It has only had one change in 1934 to accomodate FDR's gold seizure:

http://goldismoney.info/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26637&d=1176137303

Quit looking for leaders to give you remedy when you should be forming Ron's constituency yourselves:

http://friends-n-family-research.info/FFR/Merrill_PublicMoney.wmv
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1054706869308133588


Here are the bills you have heard about - they flop as soon as Ron puts them forth because you all keep endorsing private credit from the Fed.

http://thomas.loc.gov/home/c108query.html
Search for "HR 2778"

http://thomas.loc.gov/home/c110query.html
Search for "HR 2756"


Regards,

David Merrill.

DisabledVet
08-04-2007, 10:32 AM
Also know this, 100% of what pays for Fire, Police, Parks, Librarys, streets, etc etc comes from Property and Sales taxes.... 100% of the income tax goes to pay the interest on the US Debt....which is the Debt we owe to the FED which is the "rate" that Chairman Bernakee talks about.... its the interest we owe the FED on the money we borrow that they print.

So if we stop paying the Fed, they stop printing money and then the value of our dollar stabilizes.

Inflation is the deflation of the value of our currency. You could buy allot more for a $100.00 back in 1913 than you can today....thats inflation.

David Merrill
08-04-2007, 10:34 AM
http://Friends-n-Family-Research.info/FFR/Merrill_Story_of_Money.zip

rp4prez
08-04-2007, 11:22 AM
Thanks for the links and feedback!

Is there any information that would show that our income tax goes towards paying interest rates on our debt?

I'm also looking for a Woodrow Wilson quote where he regrets passing the Federal Reserve Bill. I saw that in Zeitgeist movie but have been unable to find the reference.

Thanks!

Bradley in DC
08-04-2007, 11:30 AM
Lincoln instituted an illegal income tax during the war between the states.

foofighter20x
08-04-2007, 11:38 AM
How was it illegal?

Income taxes have always been legal so long as they meet the constitutional requirements placed on direct and indirect taxes. The problem had always been how to figure out which kind of tax it was: direct or indirect? It usually got kicked over in the courts as being direct, but unapportioned and, thus, unconstitutional.

This is why the 16th Amendment was put out. For income taxes, it removed the apportionment test on that form of direct tax.

Kregener
08-04-2007, 11:56 AM
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s167/Kregener/s_irs.jpg

Bradley in DC
08-04-2007, 11:59 AM
How was it illegal?

I don't remember the details (never really my issue) but I do remember there was a Supreme Court ruling against it.

CodeMonkey
08-04-2007, 12:07 PM
Here's a pretty good philosophical/emotional argument: The very existence of an income tax assumes that your labor and earnings from your labor belong to the government, but they allow you to keep some percentage of it. You will hear this mindset clearly expressed when some of the democrats talk about taxes. They will call tax breaks "tax giveaways" and instead of raising taxes on the wealthy they are "taking away tax breaks from people who don't need them."

David Merrill
08-04-2007, 08:36 PM
I had heard that the Sixteenth Amendment was not changing anything Constitutionally that was not already in the Constitution. But that just didn't make sense until I read the 1984 article in this video.

The Income Tax is impose by private contract - through getting private credit from the Fed. The Sixteenth Amendment brought those private disputes into the courts of the US.



Regards,

David Merrill.

rp4prez
08-04-2007, 09:19 PM
The Income Tax is impose by private contract - through getting private credit from the Fed. The Sixteenth Amendment brought those private disputes into the courts of the US.
So this is very interesting! What if I got paid in liberity dollars and not US dollars? They couldn't tax that right? hehehehe.. Did I just find a loop hole? :)

David Merrill
08-05-2007, 08:04 AM
So this is very interesting! What if I got paid in liberity dollars and not US dollars? They couldn't tax that right? hehehehe.. Did I just find a loop hole? :)



The problem with Liberty Dollars is they are a run waiting to happen. The other side of that reality is that if you are getting real gold coins you are being gouged in service fees at least; and for novelties associated like Ron Paul's face on the 1 Troy Oz. Gold for $1000 when it is only $600 Spot value by weight in gold.

However there will be a time when you can get whatever is going around for currency/money in a good value from gold coin, I am sure. Like chickens? Like canned spinach? Like vegetable garden seed?

Point being don't depend too much on anything you cannot eat. Wealth is energy, not gold. Gold can buy wealth but you cannot eat it as it is.

Here is the loophole, in my video. It is not a loophole. It is remedy; enacted at the very same time the US Congress approved the Fed to furnish "elastic currency" - 1913 and amended only one time since to provide for the Bankers' Holiday gold seizure:

http://goldismoney.info/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26637&d=1176137303

And if you are playing around in gold thinking that is safe:

http://friends-n-family-research.info/FFR/Merrill_TWA_Collections.jpg

And if you think the stipulations about seizures have been lifted, look a the end stipulations:

http://Friends-n-Family-Research.info/FFR/Merrill_PL94-412.jpg
http://Friends-n-Family-Research.info/FFR/Merrill_PL94-412_stipulation.jpg

for Federal reserve members. The only way to avoid being a Fed member bank is to quit endorsing the Fed. That converts the dollars you receive for your paychecks to US notes (albeit since 1971 they still look like FRNs). Pay attention to redeeming lawful money in my video.



Regards,

David Merrill.

Brandybuck
08-05-2007, 03:11 PM
Ron Paul holds that it is unconstitutional for a number of reasons, one of which being that it wasn't passed correctly, another is that it gives no new power of taxation anyway, as was held by the supreme court in a series of cases after it was 'ratified'.
Where does Ron Paul say this? Give us a reference! Don't project your own theories on to him. I know you want him to believe this, but that does not entitle you to put words in his mouth.

I have heard these claims numerous times from Russo, Griffen, Banister, Schiff, etc, but NEVER from Ron Paul. So please, give me a quote from Ron Paul himself saying this. He definitely wants to get rid of the IRS, but this is not the same as thinking the 16th was never ratified.

The closest I have been able to find him saying this, is when he offhandedly mentioned that *other* people have suggested this. Ron Paul is not noted for pulling his punches. If he really did believe this, he would be saying it loud and often.

rp4prez
08-05-2007, 09:10 PM
Below is my first reply I sent to my friends. I plan on using the information you all provided for me here later to help back up the things I say! This is fun! :)



...The Fed I'm okay with.
But I'd like to hear what Jay was going to say (in a nutshell) about the origin of the IRS.
Nutshell... you can look up the history of the IRS but you'll have a hard time finding the origin of the IRS. There is speculation that the IRS was created as a reaction to the creation of the Fed, which prints money at congress's request. The Fed prints the money and loans it to the US at interest. If you look into the origin of the Fed you'll notice that Woodrow Wilson used it as part of his "The New Freedom" campaign for president in 1912. He and some banker friends are the ones who created the Feb Bill that passed.

At any rate, the IRS was never created by congress (if someone can find it please post it I'd love to see it!). In fact the IRS (or before 1953) it was called the Bureau of Internal Revenue. What you'll find doing a search for the history of the IRS is how it was created by Lincoln in 1862 to raise money to pay for the civil war. There were several other times it was declared unconstitutional by the supreme court until the 16th amendment was passed in surprisingly 1913 as well!

This has led to much speculation as to who actually owns/runs the Fed (if you can find out who please post!). Some say it's owners are JP Morgan and the Rockefellers families as well as others. Some have even suggested staged acts such as the Gulf of Tonkin and the result of the US entering the Vietnam war is a direct result of those super elite. The reason for this is because the most expensive thing that a government can do is go to war, which means that the government has to print more money from the fed to pay for it, which in turns means that every dollar printed has interest, which means the people who own the fed are making out like bandits!

If you haven't figured it out yet there is also speculation about Iraq and the lies about WMDs, Iraq having a part of 9/11, and Iraq harboring Al Qaeda before 9/11. What did we do? We went to war. Who are we getting the money from? hm. A few places but I bet you can guess what the speculation is.

Finally, the IRS collects your income tax to pay for big government. Other taxes, such as property, sales, and other local taxes pay for the local services you get i.e. fire, police, etc. Some say/think that the income tax that the federal government collects only goes towards the interest payments on those loans.

I've never heard Ron Paul say the IRS is illegal (he might have if you have seen it post it) however, he does want to remove the Fed and the IRS for obvious reasons. A quick YouTube of Ron Paul and the IRS/Fed you'll find out what he has to say (I must say he's one smart and consistent chop!). But I'll leave you with a quote from him the "crazy" guy. "You can't get rid of the IRS if you believe that the government should take care of you from cradle to grave. It takes a different mind set to remove the IRS." And with that I totally agree! I don't need the government to take care of me. I can take care of myself better than the government could ever, just ask my parents who are being forced to spend their $200,000 because they have to enroll into Medicare next year when they turn 65!

You should be pissed about what your government is doing to you. But instead you just seem to blow it off. I don't understand what your motivation is. Maybe it's video games maybe you don't care. But soon you probably will.

jd603
08-05-2007, 09:25 PM
Google Video

America Freedom to Fascism

or

Money Masters , 3hr documentary , more nerdy and detailed then FTF but very informative.




Anyone have any credible links to the origin of the IRS and the history of the IRS?

I'm needing to do some research and thought I would start here because I'm being attacked about RP wanting to abolish the IRS and the Fed. How do you guys think RP would argue (besides being unconstitutional) for abolishing them?