Real numbers should be used to explain what No IRS means

[Ninja Homer]

I think when many people hear Ron Paul talk about abolishing the IRS, it goes in one ear and out the other. They don't really think about what it would personally mean for them.

If real dollar amounts were used, I think it would catch people's attention a lot better. For example, "The average American will have an extra $11,250 in their pocket every year when Ron Paul is President and abolishes the IRS." (that number comes from $45,000, which I believe is actually a little lower than the average income, and using a 25% federal income tax bracket, so that isn't including state taxes)

When Jesse Ventura was running for governor of Minnesota (my state), there was a budget surplus, and they were trying to figure out what to do with it. Jesse wanted to give it back to the people. I received an ad from him in the mail, and it was the most effective political ad I've ever seen. It looked like an over-sized $100 bill, with Jesse's picture in the middle of it. I don't recall what else it had on the front. On the back, it explained that there was a budget surplus, and if Jesse was elected, he'd give it back to the taxpayers, and it would average about $100 per person. Although this isn't the only reason I voted for him, this little ad is what first got me interested in him. As they say, money talks.

I think something like this would work well for select areas for Ron Paul. Maybe a $10,000 bill. Explain on the back why the IRS is unconstitutional, how Ron Paul would get rid of it, and how much extra money they'd have every year (have a little chart or something). They should be pretty cheap to print, using just one color of green ink.

[shrugged0106]

I think when many people hear Ron Paul talk about abolishing the IRS, it goes in one ear and out the other. They don't really think about what it would personally mean for them.

If real dollar amounts were used, I think it would catch people's attention a lot better. For example, "The average American will have an extra $11,250 in their pocket every year when Ron Paul is President and abolishes the IRS." (that number comes from $45,000, which I believe is actually a little lower than the average income, and using a 25% federal income tax bracket, so that isn't including state taxes)

When Jesse Ventura was running for governor of Minnesota (my state), there was a budget surplus, and they were trying to figure out what to do with it. Jesse wanted to give it back to the people. I received an ad from him in the mail, and it was the most effective political ad I've ever seen. It looked like an over-sized $100 bill, with Jesse's picture in the middle of it. I don't recall what else it had on the front. On the back, it explained that there was a budget surplus, and if Jesse was elected, he'd give it back to the taxpayers, and it would average about $100 per person. Although this isn't the only reason I voted for him, this little ad is what first got me interested in him. As they say, money talks.

I think something like this would work well for select areas for Ron Paul. Maybe a $10,000 bill. Explain on the back why the IRS is unconstitutional, how Ron Paul would get rid of it, and how much extra money they'd have every year (have a little chart or something). They should be pretty cheap to print, using just one color of green ink.


If you could also provide links that corroborate the numbers, I would love it!!

I would quote them all over the plavce.

Great thinking BTw!

[Slugg]

Good idea...so what we need to know is:
1) Average American Income
2) Average amount paid to IRS
3) The Average Amount of taxes our Federal Government receives above and beyond the income tax.

The biggest thing I run into is, "How can the government operate if we don't pay an income tax."

We need to wash that out of people's brains...and quick...so I think you're right...

Use real numbers.

[foofighter20x]

I am a little wary of this.

Most people consider themselves to be an average American. They are not, as you should have said, the average taxpayer.

So when they don't get a $11K increase in their income once Ron Paul is president, they may get a little cranky.


"How can the government operate if we don't pay an income tax?"
I'd ask in return: Do we really need all that government we spend that tax money on?
All you have to do is find some wasteful spending to attach as a tail to that question and you should quiet that argument.

[Ninja Homer]

Scratch the $45,000... that's more like the median household income (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/income05/statemhi2.html).

If I'm reading this page (http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032006/perinc/new01_001.htm) right, the mean income for the US is $35,499. That includes everybody 15 and older though, so I'm not sure if those numbers would be the ones to use, considering there are a lot of people 15-18 that don't work as well as a lot of retirees. Mean income means you add together everybody's income, and divide by the number of people.

$35,499 is still in the 25% tax bracket, so it would be $8,875 in federal taxes.

[David Merrill]

Abolish the Fed.

Ron Paul writes bills to but he has no constituency since people keep endorsing paychecks for private credit from the Fed. Redeem lawful money instead!

http://friends-n-family-research.info/FFR/Merrill_PublicMoney.wmv
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1054706869308133588


If you endorse private credit with the Fed your signature completely overrides any sentiment otherwise. Your presentment of Internet Yarn certainly makes me doubt Ron Paul's chances for President if that is what we are going on - Internet Sentiment.

My friend was filing a Libel of Review in the US courthouse wearing a "Who is Ron Paul?" t-shirt and the guards asked him about Ron Paul. Only one had heard of him and it was news to him he was running for President. Additionally someone tried to set up a Ron Paul table at a small republican conference and was refused simply on unknown reasons. So stop endorsing the Fed if you want to help Ron Paul out in that endeavor! Your endorsements otherwise are making him look the fool in Washington!


Regards,

David Merrill.

[shrugged0106]

I am a little wary of this.

Most people consider themselves to be an average American. They are not, as you should have said, the average taxpayer.

So when they don't get a $11K increase in their income once Ron Paul is president, they may get a little cranky.


"How can the government operate if we don't pay an income tax?"
I'd ask in return: Do we really need all that government we spend that tax money on?
All you have to do is find some wasteful spending to attach as a tail to that question and you should quiet that argument.



hmmmm...good points.

what if we had some of our techy inclined folks create something like those mortgage calculators where they could enter in their gross income and it would spit out exactly what they would save with a RP Presidency?

[Elwar]

I ran the numbers back around 2004 as far as how much the Income Tax brings in and how much we spend.

At that point, if we got rid of the IRS, we would have had to go back to the spending levels of 1992 in order to get rid of the Income Tax. In 1992 we were also in a war with Iraq, so the whole "we have to spend because of Iraq" argument was moot.
I also factored in, if we weren't paying interest on the debt every year we'd only have to go back to 1997 spending...that's spending 5 years into a Democrat presidency.

Apparently someone has also run the numbers this year as I've seen a few quotes from Ron Paul sources saying that if we eliminated the Income Tax we'd have to go back to year 2002 spending.

That's what I bring up to anyone asking about how we'll survive if Ron Paul gets rid of the IRS I say: "Getting rid of the Income Tax would only eliminate 42% of the government revenue which would take us back to year 2002 spending. Did we have a government back in 2002?"

[shrugged0106]

Scratch the $45,000... that's more like the median household income (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/income05/statemhi2.html).

If I'm reading this page (http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032006/perinc/new01_001.htm) right, the mean income for the US is $35,499. That includes everybody 15 and older though, so I'm not sure if those numbers would be the ones to use, considering there are a lot of people 15-18 that don't work as well as a lot of retirees. Mean income means you add together everybody's income, and divide by the number of people.

$35,499 is still in the 25% tax bracket, so it would be $8,875 in federal taxes.


actually, I believe that median would be the more statistically valid representation.

again though, maybe something more individualized could also be attained.

[foofighter20x]

Scratch the $45,000... that's more like the median household income (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/income05/statemhi2.html).

If I'm reading this page (http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032006/perinc/new01_001.htm) right, the mean income for the US is $35,499. That includes everybody 15 and older though, so I'm not sure if those numbers would be the ones to use, considering there are a lot of people 15-18 that don't work as well as a lot of retirees. Mean income means you add together everybody's income, and divide by the number of people.

$35,499 is still in the 25% tax bracket, so it would be $8,875 in federal taxes.

A quick lesson on statistics for those scratching their head (not you , Ninja Homer)

The median is the fulcrum of any array of numbers. That is, it is THE central number. Half of the number set is higher than that number, the other half is lower.

Also, we may want to go over this data carefully. The bottom of the tax brackets pay hardly anything, which means most of that refund will go to those earning more than the median.

And statisically, averages are worthless. Just so you know. An example: The average wealth between me and Bill Gates is $34.5B. Doesn't make me rich, though, does it? :p

[foofighter20x]

hmmmm...good points.

what if we had some of our techy inclined folks create something like those mortgage calculators where they could enter in their gross income and it would spit out exactly what they would save with a RP Presidency?

Great idea!

Guess what! It's yours to run with. Make it happen! ;)

[shrugged0106]

Great idea!

Guess what! It's yours to run with. Make it happen! ;)



I'm not what you could even come close to calling a techy, but I'll give it some work. Anyone have any ideas where I could get details on the factors to the formulae?

I want it to be bullet proof if possible

[Ninja Homer]

For the record, I just wanted to post the idea. Somebody smarter than I should come up with the actual numbers to use.

"How can the government operate if we don't pay an income tax?"
I'd point out how well the government operated before there ever was an income tax.

[foofighter20x]

I'm not what you could even come close to calling a techy, but I'll give it some work. Anyone have any ideas where I could get details on the factors to the formulae?

I want it to be bullet proof if possible

I'd start with the Tax Schedules on www.irs.gov

edit: i don't mean you personally need to do it. you should just find the techy and work with them as you have the idea and know the final product you want. :)

[foofighter20x]

For the record, I just wanted to post the idea. Somebody smarter than I should come up with the actual numbers to use.

"How can the government operate if we don't pay an income tax?"
I'd point out how well the government operated before there ever was an income tax.

I see what you did there...



you sound like a certain Dr we all know when he was on Neil Cavuto. ;) :p