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Pii
01-28-2008, 02:36 PM
Please Digg this article:

Could Ron Paul win as a Third Party Candidate? (http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/Could_Ron_Paul_win_as_a_Third_Party_Candidate_Mayb e)


As a Ron Paul supporter, I have to walk a fine line between optimism and realism.

The optimist in me says that this nomination cycle isn’t over by a longshot, and that due to campaign funding, Ron can afford to let the other campaigns spend themselves out, and he’ll get a fair shake once we are down to three candidates. Huckabee and Giuliani are all but done. Neither of them will be around after Super Tuesday. That’ll leave Romney, McCaine, and my guy…

The realist in me says that the media blackout, calculated and effective, is working. While the other candidates get plenty of free TV exposure courtesy of the mainstream media, my guy is largely relegated to coverage my College newspapers, bloggers, and an occasional Op-Ed piece contributed by readers.

As much as I want to stay upbeat, I recognize that Dr. Paul is probably not going to win the Republican nomination. I think he’ll be in the race until the end, but it’s not going to be enough.

So I sit here wondering how this is all going to go down, and I think I’ve figured it out. Whenever he’s been asked about it, on those few occasions where the media pretends he actually exists, he has made statements to the effect that he isn’t planning a third party run. He has all but ruled it out.

But he’s never ruled it out completely…

Now, I’m prepared to take the good doctor at his word, because he is above all things, an honest man. I believe sincerely that his plan was to win the Republican nomination, and that any provocative statements about a third party candidacy would have ruined even the remote possibility of that to occur. That said, I would have to be a complete idiot not to think that there have been some very serious discussions within the campaign about a third party bid as a “Plan B.”

What are the problems with a third party run? There are three main obstacles: Ballot Access, Debate Rules, and Winner-take-All.


Ballot Access
The first hurdle, obviously, is ballot access. The Democratic and Republican candidates are guaranteed a place on the ballots, but third parties must clear a number of additional hurdles, such as paying registration fees, and meeting petition requirements.

Ron Paul, by virtue of his phenomenal ability to raise funds, and his wide-spread grassroots support, should be able to handle these issues with relative ease.

Debate Rules
There are two notable rules that essentially lock third party candidates out of the debate process. The first is that a third party candidate must appear on enough state ballots that he could mathematically win an Electoral College majority. The second, and more nefarious, is that the candidate must be polling at 15% in public opinion polls prior to the debates.

I have no doubt that Ron Paul, with his rabid support organization, could get on every State ballot in the country. They have already managed to do so for the primary ballots, and would easily be able to do so for the general election in November.

I also think that it is not inconceivable that he could muster 15% in opinion polling, assuming that the Democratic and Republican nomination process had whittled away all of the other contenders, that he could hold onto the approximate 10% of Republicans that he currently attracts, and that the established third parties (Libertarian Party, Constitution Party, and Reform Party) threw their support behind him, which is, to my mind, a very reasonable assumption.

Winner-take-All
Obviously, Winner-take-All (or Plurality-take-All) is another factor that discourages the possibilities of a successful third party bid. Under our system, a third party candidate could take 2nd in the popular vote in all 50 States, and would not receive a single Electoral College delegate. Proportional representation would mitigate this, but we haven’t got that, so there’s no point in elaborating. In order for a third party candidate to win, he would have to win States outright… 2nd place doesn’t cut it.

So those are the primary challenges that face anyone hoping to mount a third party bid for the Presidency.

Of the three, obviously, Ballot Access is the easiest one to address. Ron Paul’s supporters have already successfully run this gauntlet to get him on all of the Primary ballots, and it wouldn’t be very difficult to do so again. All it takes is effort and a sufficient number of supporters, and I think we’ve demonstrated that we have what it takes to make that happen.

Meeting the 15% debate threshold is a bit trickier, though, not impossible. In fact, I think that’s what Ron Paul has really been working toward throughout the Republican nomination cycle. The longer he stays in the nomination race, and the more debates he participates in, the better his chances. Even though the debate moderators largely ignore him, his presence alone, and his answers during the brief moments where he gets to speak generate controversy and interest.

The disastrous economy is actually a huge boon for Ron Paul. Not only had he been predicting this recession, but his understanding of economics and monetary policy vastly outclasses any other candidate from either party. As the economy worsens, Paul’s message may very well start to strike a chord with the American mainstream.

Remember, in 1992 Ross Perot managed to climb from a 7% polling rate prior to the debates, to 19% in the general election. That’s a multiplier of over 2.5. If Ron Paul could muster the 15% necessary to participate in the debates as a third party, and get the same kind of conversion rate as Perot managed heading into the general election, he would garner 37.5% of the vote in the general election… In a three-way race, he’d only need 34% to win.

With the right electoral math, he’d have a very real possibility of mounting the first successful third party run for President of the United States

fedup100
01-28-2008, 02:43 PM
With well done infomercials nationwide, he could do this easily. We as the grassroots have the talent and money to get a really good infomercial on the air. To bad we didn't do it earlier.

Could we get it together in two weeks including funding. We do not need to put it on the main expensive stations, that is to be held back until just before the general election.

We don't need a billionaire to do this for us, when we all get together on a project, WE, the movement becomes the billionaire!!

Pii
01-28-2008, 02:46 PM
But did you Digg it at the posted link?

MikeStanart
01-28-2008, 02:47 PM
Instead of asking this question; how about people GOTV?

Delegates people!

Pondering this idea is self-detrimental; and will only lead to a sell-fullfilling prophesy of losing the Republican Nomination.

theantirobot
01-28-2008, 02:50 PM
I've always thought we have a better chance as a third party. To get the best possible shot as a third party it's extremely important to push as hard as possible for the republican nomination.

A Ron Paul endorsement of Unity08 could go a very long way. Throwing the resources of the entire Ron Paul grass roots organization at something such as unity08 could really get it going. We have something that no third party has had before, a nation wide movement that keeps on growing.

If we elect a whole third party, we can change things very quickly...no lame ducks. Remember, it's a Revolution here.

People want change. Why not have them vote for a new third party, one that functions in a way not possible just a few years ago. It's time to put the internet to good use. If the founders of our nation were alive today they would not ignore the internet in their design of our government. We can incorporate it now. There is a need.

The unity08 idea is something that can be emulated by any nation. Our movement can spread globally, just like it did so many years ago. America can be a beacon of freedom as it once was. We live in a new world, and it's time to make the most of it.

ShowMeLiberty
01-28-2008, 02:51 PM
Instead of asking this question; how about people GOTV?

Delegates people!

Pondering this idea is self-detrimental; and will only lead to a sell-fullfilling prophesy of losing the Republican Nomination.

+1

Goldwater Conservative
01-28-2008, 02:52 PM
Ballot access wouldn't be a problem.

The 15% polling threshold is admittedly a serious challenge, but I think it could be done with a well-coordinated "vote Paul in the polls!" campaign, supported by Internet resources. We just have to convince people to at least vote for him in the polls, even if they plan on voting for someone they think "stands a chance" in the actual voting booth, just to get him in the debates and demonstrate his true appeal.

As for the Electoral College, that might actually help us, since Paul could win just by getting narrow pluralities (say, 30-35%) in a number of states. Depending on which party controls a majority of the House seats in a majority of the state delegations in the House, we could tell some people that even if Paul throws the election to the House, their likely backup candidate will be chosen anyway.

Pii
01-28-2008, 02:54 PM
Instead of asking this question; how about people GOTV?

Delegates people!

Pondering this idea is self-detrimental; and will only lead to a sell-fulfilling prophesy of losing the Republican Nomination.

I know the argument... I really do... But after seeing the BS in Louisiana, the election fraud in New Hampshire, the complete absence of news coverage even while Ron is stomping Rudy all over the place, I just can't rationalize any way to win the GOP nomination.

People say: Brokered Convention... Delegates notwithstanding, GOP rules say that a candidate must have won 5 states outright to even be considered in the second rounds of balloting... Nothing would please me more, but do we have any reason to believe that's going to happen?

I'm not trying to be negative... On the contrary, I'm trying to be positive. While I agree we should continue our efforts to win the GOP nomination, using every method at our disposal, I think that even if we come up short, the circumstances might just be aligned in our favor to be successful as a third party...

obstruksion
01-28-2008, 02:55 PM
you have to keep in mind that there are rules in some states that if you are on the D/R ticket for the primary, you are barred from the general election.

does anyone know about these rules? RP mentions them all the time when asked about a 3rd party attempt.

also, there's a double edged sword here. being a realist, i am rooting for Obama on the D side in case RP doesn't make it. but Obama would be the worst opponent in a 2-way or 3-way election as he would pull away a lot of younger support who would likely vote for us if Hillary was their only other option. kind of makes me want to root for her a bit...we'll see what happens, but the D side will be interesting to watch as well. if RP has to run 3rd party against Mitt/Obama, I doubt he would do it. but against McCain/Hillary I think people would be desperate for his message and he'd have a great shot.

Goldwater Conservative
01-28-2008, 03:06 PM
People say: Brokered Convention... Delegates notwithstanding, GOP rules say that a candidate must have won 5 states outright to even be considered in the second rounds of balloting... Nothing would please me more, but do we have any reason to believe that's going to happen?

If McCain locks up the nomination early and Romney drops out (and Huck and Rudy have already dropped out), I can see there being a coordinated effort by some to vote for Paul in the remaining states just to weaken McCain heading into the convention, especially if the Dems are still slugging it out (likely given their PR system). Factor in lower turnout from McCain's soft base and there could be some late-season surprises for Paul.


you have to keep in mind that there are rules in some states that if you are on the D/R ticket for the primary, you are barred from the general election.

does anyone know about these rules? RP mentions them all the time when asked about a 3rd party attempt.

It's only a few states, and they wouldn't hold up in court since you don't vote for candidates but slates of electors.

Detonator
01-28-2008, 03:10 PM
He wouldn't win.

obstruksion
01-29-2008, 06:42 AM
He wouldn't win.

good argument

MN Patriot
01-29-2008, 07:43 AM
Yes, I've argued for Ron running as a third party candidate before. I think your analysis is pretty accurate. And I'm sure this is a very important consideration for Ron and his campaign.

At the moment, they need to keep attracting new supporters and media attention, so he needs to stay running as a Republican for a few more months. Third party talk is a distraction at this point, we need to stay focused on the primaries. Later this spring they they would have to re-assess where they stand in terms of delegates, how much grassroots support they have, and if the Republican Party Establishment would support him as their candidate.

Ron has mentioned the idea of going into the Republican national convention and winning as a brokered candidate. I have a hard time seeing this happening. There are too many neo-cons in the Republican party who would rather see McCain or Romney as the candidate. Ideally for the Republican Party, they would want Ron to be committed as a Republican so that they can then get him off the ballot completely at the convention. Then the Ron Paul Revolution would be over, at least for 2008. And who knows if Ron would be willing to do all this over again in 4 years. Sure, he could go back to Congress and continue to be outvoted 434-1. What would that accomplish?

I think it is imperative for Ron to run as a third party. He is creating a revolution, revolutions don't occur within establishment political organizations. Since Ron has run as a Libertarian, it seems that would be the most likely route. They already have ballot access established in many states. That is expensive to do, millions of dollars that could be spent on advertising rather than getting on the ballot as an independent.

Then the Libertarian Party should run a full slate of congressional candidates nationwide, all of them using Ron's name recognition to get his ideas out there. The LP needs to emphasize that everyone who supports freedom, everyone who opposes socialism and fascism, should join the revolution and support Ron and the LP. The Republican Party will have to be destroyed, all of their candidates would lose votes to the LP. Make them choose between fascism and freedom. The fascists could then join the Democrat party, everyone else join the LP. Only two parties can survive for long in our political system. If we are to have a party that actually stands for peace, freedom and prosperity, one of the old parties will have to die.

dave68
01-29-2008, 08:28 AM
I think you are right on with your analysis. If Ron can`t win the GOP convention, hopefully he can stir up as much controversy as he can. Run Libertarian party. As long as he would be able to run in all 50 states he CAN WIN!!!
People are just starting to tune into politics now. Most people do not get involved with the primaries. I work in a UAW plant, and 70% of the guys are Dems. THEY LIKE RON A LOT MORE THAN HILLARY, OR OBAMA!! In fact one of these liberal guys told me about Ron after the debates. Remember Ron opposes NAFTA, CAFTA, abolish the IRS, against the war, etc. This resonates with Democrats. His strict following of the constitution, pro life positions are good for the conservative side. A Mccain/Hillary showdown would be the perfect opening for him. Bill Clinton got NAFTA passed, and they are both for the war.

Actually Perot was polling 30% before he dropped out, and re enter the 92 race. Something about the GOP was going to pull some dirty tricks on his daughters wedding or something. He lost credibility after that.

nc4rp
01-29-2008, 08:41 AM
Paul is being very strategically removed from the GoP choices in the minds of NC voters. NC is being spoon-fed Mccain and they are eating it up.

there is a coordinated effort to hide Ron Paul's name from even being mentioned here.

however Ron Paul did make the newspaper Front Page from the Asheville meetup group's highway blogging efforts - http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200880127028

Bison
01-29-2008, 11:20 AM
He wouldn't win.

America would win. The freedom message would be kept in the public eye all the way to the election. Then the freedom movement would continue to gain recruits and become that much stronger. If it does not happen this time then we have a couple years to make it happen next time. Do not give up.

Remember to vote local constitutionalists into office via the Constitution Party (http://www.constitutionparty.com/view_states.php) and Libertarian Party (http://www.lp.org). If Ron Paul is not the nominee do not reward either major party with a vote.

Your vote will actually count by helping the party of your choice retain ballot access. Who knows, you might even elect a third party candidate, which will scare the daylights out of the two "major" parties. That would prove that the sleepy American public is waking up, despite the best efforts of the "major" parties and MSN to keep them asleep.

drain
01-29-2008, 01:33 PM
I've always thought we have a better chance as a third party. To get the best possible shot as a third party it's extremely important to push as hard as possible for the republican nomination.

A Ron Paul endorsement of Unity08 could go a very long way. Throwing the resources of the entire Ron Paul grass roots organization at something such as unity08 could really get it going. We have something that no third party has had before, a nation wide movement that keeps on growing.

The unity08 idea is something that can be emulated by any nation. Our movement can spread globally, just like it did so many years ago. America can be a beacon of freedom as it once was. We live in a new world, and it's time to make the most of it.


Unity08 is not the answer. Coming closer to the center is just moving us more towards Socialism. We must move towards liberty/capitalism. Don't fall in that trap.