Announcing My Bid For Congress [Archive] - Ron Paul Forums / Liberty Forest

porcupine07

01-31-2008, 04:17 PM

The only thing I have found is that I would do different is to push for some form of free health care to US citizens. Especially senior citizens....

Thanks for the support!

Phillip

I think we all would agree, that the Constitution should be the only guide for anyone seeking public office, and since it does not provide for anything like that, it isn't allowed. (10th amdendment)

The last thing we need in these United States, is government control of our health. "Free" healthcare isn't free, it's simply taking from one person to give to another, since the government has no money of its own.

The real problem is the devaluation of our money. I wasnt around in the 1950's but im guessing that not everyone had to have health insurance or their whole life goes down the drain like it does today. People can't afford to pay medical bills today because our servants in washington have been allowed to run amok for generations, while we keep electing them to bankrupt us and plunge us all into ruin.

Ex Post Facto

01-31-2008, 04:21 PM

As long as you agree to uphold the constitution and the rights of every citizen I would support you. Issues I can care less about. We need integrity.

rightcoast

02-01-2008, 06:12 PM

"Free" healthcare means you would steal from me, and the mouths of my children to give to another. Where there is smoke, there is fire, and Washington would eat a compromiser like you alive. Next thing you know, we have a Jeff Flake type representing Georgia. No thank you sir. I'll pass.

FreeTraveler

02-01-2008, 06:20 PM

The only thing I have found is that I would do different is to push for some form of free health care to US citizens. Especially senior citizens....

Thanks for the support!

Phillip

Sorry, that rules you out. You'll have to steal the funds for that from other citizens, or you'll have to make the medical people work for free. Which do you propose to use, theft or slavery?

beachmaster

02-01-2008, 07:10 PM

The only free health care program I'll support is the kind where I am free to choose the type of health care I want, be it under the medical industrial complex, or a new age guru with magic beans, and be free to negotiate the best possible deal with my health care providers on my own, or collectively through whatever insurance plan I may opt to pick. Under this free health care program, the FDA will not be able to dictate to me nor my provider of what medicines we can use for MY treatment.

I will not have someone else pay for my health care by the theft of their money or resources. That wouldn't be free.

american empire

02-01-2008, 07:25 PM

why can you guys not comprehend the idea of "health care" being a basic human requirement....do we argue over sanitation for all?.....or clean drinking water for all?....
do we make an issue about the fire dept or the police dept?.....they come out of your tax dollars and every one requires this,........all those against the"universal health care" can you say you don't want to fund any of these b/c you havent had a fire in your house ever?....or b/c why should I pay for someone elses fire?......

the problem is that all you against it have been brainwashed with the democratic "universal health care" which is a corrupt system considering they have not removed the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies out of the way.....

half of you guys don't even know the plans of Obama and clinton and call them "universal" healthcare.....they have basically hijacked that entity.....they just provide insurance for all and that money goes you know where.......

I am a doctor and its my belief that healthcare is a basic human right and should be equal for a rich man or a poor guy....just like clean water and sanitation.....none of you probably know that the costs incurred for medicare is less than 4%....and actually well managed....

what I do like is .....
removal of insurance companies....doctor patient relationship...
no income tax and that money going into your health care fund...
that money being available to go to whichever hospital or doctor you want.....
you might want to study the plan being worked out in Colarado and they are doing a study with the report due sometime soon....

Again healthcare is a basic human right.....please give your response on why is it NOT......

allyinoh

02-01-2008, 07:29 PM

Again healthcare is a basic human right.....please give your response on why is it NOT......

Why don't you start here....

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=9

rp08orbust

02-01-2008, 07:35 PM

The only thing I have found is that I would do different is to push for some form of free health care to US citizens. Especially senior citizens....

I think you should consider running for the Georgia assembly instead then, assuming that Georgia's constitution allows public healthcare.

rp08orbust

02-01-2008, 07:43 PM

I am a doctor and its my belief that healthcare is a basic human right

Then you better move to Africa and start delivering that human right to the people there for free ASAP.

Basic human rights can easily be identified by whether they require wealthy people to be stolen from in order for them to be guaranteed. For example, the rights of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, right to bear arms, privacy, freedom of religion, private property, etc, do not require stealing from anyone in order to be exercised.

allyinoh

02-01-2008, 07:59 PM

It's a repost of mine but I am telling you this article lays it out awesomely...

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=9

beachmaster

02-01-2008, 08:16 PM

I am a doctor and its my belief that healthcare is a basic human right

I'm a real estate investor, and I believe housing is a basic human right. But don't call on me to pay your rent!

american empire

02-01-2008, 08:25 PM

Then you better move to Africa and start delivering that human right to the people there for free ASAP.

Basic human rights can easily be identified by whether they require wealthy people to be stolen from in order for them to be guaranteed. For example, the rights of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, right to bear arms, privacy, freedom of religion, private property, etc, do not require stealing from anyone in order to be exercised.
Reply With Quote

sigh.......
rp08

before I debate this one thing should be clear....hillary Obama plans are NOT healthcare for all....
I don't want to bring emotions into a logical argument...but when a patient comes to me depending on the state I am in I have to ask the insurance company if I can do a certain procedure and if he/she is covered....what do you think happens if I get a "no" for an answer?...I have a guy I can treat but cannot go through with an intervention b/c he/she is not covered.....fortunately this is rare....
what you have to realize is that healthcare IS a problem.....and for every American....are you telling me that the right to bear arms has priority over helping a dying man who cannot pay....
are you telling me I cannot save the guy b/c he cant pay for a laprotomy for a bullet wound?.....b/c that isnt stated in the definition of "rights".....thankfully emergency procedures are all tackled.....

my point is if the founding fathers knew of the healthcare crisis being what it is....they would have specifically added the word....but they added pursuit of happiness and right to life....so they could cover all bases.....

yes and I do want to go to Africa b/c sometimes giving a child a simple chloroquine for malaria is more satisfying than an angiography to save an obese guy who can't alter his dietary habits and go out and excercise once a week.......we have become arrogant and wasteful....

besides hypotheticaly what if you got leukemia tomorrow and were not covered for a Bone marrow transplant?....you knew there was treatment for you ....I knew I could save you with one.....you see the frustration on both sides?......

Why don't you start here....

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=9

he is debating hillary's plan.......
like I said hillary and Obama have hijacked the real healthcare plan and made people turn against it so now everyone hates the concept of a Universal health care....
please we all need to read the plans before we disscuss this.....I am more anti hillary plan than you b/c she is actually distorting what all doctors want ....ie healthcare for all with insurance companies out of the way....

american empire

02-01-2008, 08:28 PM

I'm a real estate investor, and I believe housing is a basic human right. But don't call on me to pay your rent!

haha....well siad....
maybe I didnt structure that correctly.....
considering what you all want and I go with you guys....
then we should be raising our voices against paying the police and the fire brigade squad tooo...
I say from today I don't want money stolen from me to go to the fire department or the police department b/c neither am I a criminal nor have I ever had a fire in my house.....

evadmurd

02-01-2008, 08:45 PM

I am a doctor and its my belief that healthcare is a basic human right and should be equal for a rich man or a poor guy....

Great, then you and others like you are free to provide as much health care to whoever you choose, using whatever criteria you decide upon. No one is stopping you from doing that.

As a doctor, you know that the majority of illness in this country is caused by obesity and smoking. These factors reflect the free choice of anyone to control as they so desire. If they choose poorly, no one has the financial obligation to rescue them from their behavior. They certainly may choose to assist them, but their is no obligation to do such. In fact, even if they choose wisely, there is still no obligation.

Free markets and mechanisms of compassion are the devices to take care of the health care system. Not theft and slavery.

beachmaster

02-01-2008, 08:45 PM

haha....well siad....
maybe I didnt structure that correctly.....
considering what you all want and I go with you guys....
then we should be raising our voices against paying the police and the fire brigade squad tooo...
I say from today I don't want money stolen from me to go to the fire department or the police department b/c neither am I a criminal nor have I ever had a fire in my house.....

Government's role is to defend life and liberty. Police/Military functions are well within the ideals of the Constitution.

As to fires.... what's wrong with voluntary fire departments? They are all over the place now. Will you pay for my hazard insurance on my house?

I didn't think so.

american empire

02-01-2008, 08:51 PM

It's a repost of mine but I am telling you this article lays it out awesomely...

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=9

please think again before reposting.....b/c I read some more and I quote

"Some people can't afford medical care in the U.S. But they are necessarily a small minority in a free or even semi-free country. If they were the majority, the country would be an utter bankrupt and could not even think of a national medical program. As to this small minority, in a free country they have to rely solely on private, voluntary charity. Yes, charity, the kindness of the doctors or of the better off -- charity, not right, i.e. not their right to the lives or work of others. And such charity, I may say, was always forthcoming in the past in America. The advocates of Medicaid and Medicare under LBJ did not claim that the poor or old in the '60's got bad care; they claimed that it was an affront for anyone to have to depend on charity."

I don;'t even know where to start....before I do....I read some about Mr Peikoff....

the guy is not even a doc and speaks like he knows it all.....he is a philosophy major for crying out loud....the closest this guy got to medicine was premed???and somehow he is an authority on healthcare....besides I hate to speculate but his dad was a surgeon ....hmmmm a son who never made it into med school althogh that is what he wanted,.....with a dad who is a surgeon
hmmmmmm got some beef i telllya.....but screw that and see what he says

yes charity...brilliant ....charity ....is this guy insane....you know the average debt of every doc coming out of med school???....do you know how much you earn coming out of med school??? 45k ......yes we could give that up and treat for free....brilliant....and yes a lot of families who can't pay would love to go door to door collecting alms to save their son....or less dramatic say go ask money to get their hernia removed....who the heck would give the guy money to get that done....ppl would say suck it up....

people who cant afford healthcare a minority????wtf...tell this guy to spend a day with me in hospital.....besides his dad's a surgeon the guy probably paid for this guy's shinanigans........
and his medical....

country would be bankrupt.......helllllllloooo....it is ......

loook I can dissect the whole article but what I am interested is who the heck went to listen to this guy and why can't you tell his arguments are bs.....muchless presenting others to read it......look being associated with ayn rand doesnt make someone your guru.....greenspan for one is an example.......

seriously....give me something better to read .like an actual practicing doc saying ...people should NOT get healtcare ......

american empire

02-01-2008, 08:55 PM

Government's role is to defend life and liberty. Police/Military functions are well within the ideals of the Constitution.

yes so tell me the difference between a policeman catching the guy who broke into your house vs a doctor catching your cancer before it spreads....

american empire

02-01-2008, 09:01 PM

sigh ....

maybe someday when you cannot pay for a procedure ....you will realize what I am talking about....but I guess you guys are above 40k earners .......

then you guys ask why people don't vote for Ron....simple because we people have the time to do teh research b/c we are not working two jobs....ask the guy who is working two shifts...obviously he will be like Ron Paul who????....

my point is and we should have a poll here....the average paulite's income....you will see why some issues matter to us and some don't.....

the problem is that you guys associate hillary care as universal care.....and its this that I can;t shake off.....

american empire

02-01-2008, 09:12 PM

btw sorrryyyy........Philip for hijacking your thread.....sorrry ....apologize.....

make health care free is vague....but I like that you make healthcare a big issue and I am sad that Ron failed to highlight his b/c his plan is amazing I am not talking about the FDA and other stuff but how to pay for healthcare and to get the insurance companies off our backs.....

sir I don't know where the 8th district is...but my sis and bro-in-law are moving to Atlanta this summer....near Emory.....so if you run on his policies you have two assured votes....

and thanks for planning to run.....hope you make it.....

rp08orbust

02-01-2008, 10:55 PM

my point is if the founding fathers knew of the healthcare crisis being what it is....they would have specifically added the word....but they added pursuit of happiness and right to life....so they could cover all bases.....

I realize that's your point, but I think it's incorrect, because all of the rights that the founders actually talked about were those whose exercise by an individual does not impose any cost on anyone else. E.g., exercising my right to free speech doesn't cost anyone anything. Granted, exercising my right to due process imposes a cost on taxpayers, but the court system is a very minor expense for taxpayers compared to, say, health care.

The health care rights you're talking about are a fundamentally new kind of right whereby one person's need and another person's ability to satisfy that need creates a moral obligation for the person with the ability to satisfy the person in need, provided the person in need consents. If that isn't what you mean by "right", then what do you mean?

If that is what you mean, then why do these rights not transcend national boundaries? I.e., why doesn't the US's ability to provide health care for all of Mexico, and Mexico's need for such health care (there's no doubt that they would consent to receiving it), create a moral obligation for the US to do so? That is why I asked you why you haven't moved to Africa to provide health care to the people of the world who need it most for free.

If there is something missing from my definition of "right" that absolves the US from having to provide health care to Mexico but still requires publicly subsidized health care within its borders, then please enlighten me.

rightcoast

02-01-2008, 11:11 PM

yes so tell me the difference between a policeman catching the guy who broke into your house vs a doctor catching your cancer before it spreads....

Is that some kind of sarcasm, or do you really not know the difference between a crime and cancer? Crime is something that there is a law against, which enforcing the law is the job of the (local) police ... and the difference between that, and cancer, is cancer is not the act of a criminal, but aberrant cell behavior.

You either get that stealing from me to give heath care to another is wrong or do not. You either grasp praexology or do not. Their is no middle ground here. You are either for true liberty, or not. A right is defined ... DEFINED as something that you enjoy as long as it does not infringe on on mine. As the saying goes, my right to swing my fist ends where your chin begins.

beachmaster

02-02-2008, 01:20 AM

yes so tell me the difference between a policeman catching the guy who broke into your house vs a doctor catching your cancer before it spreads....

Why stop there? What about my cirrhosis of the liver which was due to my drinking too much? What about my skin cancer due to my laying out on the beach every day, all day? What about my heart disease due to my big fat ass that likes to eat 5 Big Macs a day, along with 5 milk shakes, or my bronchitis due to my smoking 3 packs of cigarettes a day?

Should a guy who eats healthy, doesn't smoke, spends money at the local gym exercising daily, who uses sun screen and pays extra to eat organic foods, be forced to pay for the slob who eats junk food, doesn't exercise, smokes 3 packs a day, smokes crack, smokes anything he can get his hands on, hangs out in drug dealing neighborhoods where the chance of a gunshot wound is much higher than say, at a person's home or workplace, etc., ad nauseum,....... should the healthy living guy be forced to pay for the health care of the non-healthy guy?

Please justify that for me. Then let's talk. Until then, forget about it!

american empire

02-02-2008, 09:26 AM

You either get that stealing from me to give heath care to another is wrong or do not. You either grasp praexology or do not. Their is no middle ground here. You are either for true liberty, or not. A right is defined ... DEFINED as something that you enjoy as long as it does not infringe on on mine. As the saying goes, my right to swing my fist ends where your chin begins

where is it defined in the constitution that we should have clean drinking water or sanitation....lets do away with those two as well....(I get bottled water so maybe I need not pay for it)..........they have not been defined in the constitution so why should my tax dollars go there

you talk of crime?....I guess what the founding fathers had in mind was NOT a police .....hence the second amendment....you protect your property not the POLICE.........follow the constitution as a whole eh......

rights are defined....???....so what you are saying is that if they were not included 200 and something years ago then they should not be looked at????....whoa so where did the amendments come in???

fine lets do a poll and see who here has no insurance......and what your salaries are....I know most dont want to divulge this info but you can start by saying if you have insurance or NOT.......If yes then are you not supporting the medical insurance complex....they have NOT been defined in the constitution yet you pay for it....yes its good to say health care is not a right and "stealing" money to pay for others....yet what you are doing is paying a beast to who is making profit out of health care.....now go ahead and cancel your insurance and start paying yourself for the costs incurred .....tell me when you do that....haha and let me know how you fared ....

Should a guy who eats healthy, doesn't smoke, spends money at the local gym exercising daily, who uses sun screen and pays extra to eat organic foods, be forced to pay for the slob who eats junk food, doesn't exercise, smokes 3 packs a day, smokes crack, smokes anything he can get his hands on, hangs out in drug dealing neighborhoods where the chance of a gunshot wound is much higher than say, at a person's home or workplace, etc., ad nauseum,....... should the healthy living guy be forced to pay for the health care of the non-healthy guy?

okay this is just ignorance and your radio host talk........look dude do you even understand the human body....you just don't get cirhossis by drinking ....I can tell you 5 more ways of getting it ....one is hemochromatosis....see how you get that its freakin hereditary ....gosh tell a child with cystic fibrosis that son you were screwed by God so go bugger off b/c I am healthy.... ever heard of homocystinemia ....where you can get clogged arteries b/c of your enzyme difficiencies......you this is the mentality of the insurance companies ......maybe they should recruit you...might want to send them your resume.....they increase your premium if you have greater comorbidities.....hell some cant even afford it b/c God wasnt kind enuff to let them NOT have diabetes .....

the thing with everyone paying for healthcare is that EVERYONE will get sick one day..... no one willingly wants to get sick(yes SOME are alcoholics and drugies but we need to educate them rather than saying bugger off you can go screw yourself) ....but the thing with healthcare is that everyone will hit old age....you will NOT be earning and if we remove Medicare how do you propose you can payoff the huge bills you will incur????????.....

american empire

02-02-2008, 09:48 AM

I realize that's your point, but I think it's incorrect, because all of the rights that the founders actually talked about were those whose exercise by an individual does not impose any cost on anyone else. E.g., exercising my right to free speech doesn't cost anyone anything. Granted, exercising my right to due process imposes a cost on taxpayers, but the court system is a very minor expense for taxpayers compared to, say, health care.

The health care rights you're talking about are a fundamentally new kind of right whereby one person's need and another person's ability to satisfy that need creates a moral obligation for the person with the ability to satisfy the person in need, provided the person in need consents. If that isn't what you mean by "right", then what do you mean?

If that is what you mean, then why do these rights not transcend national boundaries? I.e., why doesn't the US's ability to provide health care for all of Mexico, and Mexico's need for such health care (there's no doubt that they would consent to receiving it), create a moral obligation for the US to do so? That is why I asked you why you haven't moved to Africa to provide health care to the people of the world who need it most for free.

If there is something missing from my definition of "right" that absolves the US from having to provide health care to Mexico but still requires publicly subsidized health care within its borders, then please enlighten me.

yes this is a much more valid argument.....especially having no boundaries......I guess its the same with democracy.....why can't we be happy with democracy at home and stop worrying about spreading that....why are we so concerned that some state is a communist or not or some state has the shariah law .....we are quick to transcend borders on that but not health.....but that is getting off the topic....although I must say that No country should pay for another countries heathcare just as no country should buy cheap labor off another country or meddle with their internal politics........

lets say I agree with you ....how do you purpose to solve the problems.....you know a lot of anti paul people say his ideas are spot on but the solutions need to be worked on....lets see if any of you even know what Ron's policy about health care is?...that will save me the time discussing this and knowing the scope of your knowledge regarding the healthcare.........

beachmaster

02-02-2008, 09:57 AM

lets see if any of you even know what Ron's policy about health care is?...that will save me the time discussing this and knowing the scope of your knowledge regarding the healthcare.........

Here, right from his website:

The federal government decided long ago that it knew how to manage your health care better than you and replaced personal responsibility and accountability with a system that puts corporate interests first. Our free market health care system that was once the envy of the world became a federally-managed disaster.

Few people realize that Congress forced Health Maintenance Organizations (HMOs) on us. HMOs rose to prominence through federal legislation, incentives, and coercion.

Now, the Food and Drug Administration's bias toward large pharmaceutical companies enlarges their power, limits treatment options, and drives consumers to seek Canadian medicines. Regulations from D.C. make it virtually impossible for small business owners to cover their employees. The unemployed often cannot afford insurance, meaning those who need basic medical attention overcrowd emergency rooms and drive up premiums.

The federal government will not suddenly become efficient managers if universal health care is instituted. Government health care only means long waiting periods, lack of choice, poor quality, and frustration. Many Canadians, fed up with socialized medicine, come to the U.S. in order to obtain care. Socialized medicine will not magically work here.

Health care should not be left up to HMOs, big drug companies, and government bureaucrats.

It is time to take back our health care. This is why I support:

* Making all medical expenses tax deductible.
* Eliminating federal regulations that discourage small businesses from providing coverage.
* Giving doctors the freedom to collectively negotiate with insurance companies and drive down the cost of medical care.
* Making every American eligible for a Health Savings Account (HSA), and removing the requirement that individuals must obtain a high-deductible insurance policy before opening an HSA.
* Reform licensure requirements so that pharmacists and nurses can perform some basic functions to increase access to care and lower costs.

By removing federal regulations, encouraging competition, and presenting real choices, we can make our health care system the envy of the world once again.

--------------------

Do you agree with this? If not, you might not be a Paulite!

rp08orbust

02-02-2008, 06:36 PM

yes this is a much more valid argument.....especially having no boundaries......I guess its the same with democracy.....why can't we be happy with democracy at home and stop worrying about spreading that

No, it isn't like it at all: notice that "consent" was a key element of my description of the "ability + need + right + consent = obligation" formula. You appear to agree with this formula (I'm not sure yet if I do), except that you want to expand "right" to include health care.

While representative democracy is a right, I can't think of any instance in world history where a country consented to having another country come write its constitution and set up a government for it; thus forcible nation-building and spreading democracy by force is not implied by my formula.

lets say I agree with you ....how do you purpose to solve the problems.....you know a lot of anti paul people say his ideas are spot on but the solutions need to be worked on....lets see if any of you even know what Ron's policy about health care is?...that will save me the time discussing this and knowing the scope of your knowledge regarding the healthcare.........

Others have cited Ron Paul's health care ideas. One of his best, which I hardly ever see discussed, is lifting the ban on prescription drug re-importation. With the ban, countries where medicine is socialized or subsidized are shielded from American demand, thereby keeping their drug prices low, while in the US, Americans are blocked from foreign supply, thereby keeping their drug prices high. Lifting the ban would cause global drug prices to converge to something in-between (which would of course piss off socialist countries). The US pharmaceutical companies have successfully scared the public into believing that American drugs on the shelves in Canada are somehow "dangerous" because the FDA has not monitored the entire "chain of custody", which is utter bullshit.

I think it's quite possible that with the lifting of the 1987 ban (I forget its name), prices would come down enough within the US that it would be politically possible to repeal George Bush's disastrous Medicare prescription drug plan.

beachmaster

02-02-2008, 10:45 PM

okay this is just ignorance and your radio host talk........look dude

No, you look, "dude"... it's really simple. You don't agree with Ron Paul's ideas of liberty, which happen to coincide with the Constitution. Perhaps you would be better off arguing for a constitutional amendment that refines what a true right is.

And since I don't appreciate your condescending "ignorant radio host talk" comment, I will leave it here and end my part of this discussion by suggesting you (and all other doctors who agree with your position while we're at it) do as another poster suggested and go out and give your services to those in need for free. Try that for a year, then come back and let us know what you think. Til then... see ya!

paulpwns

02-02-2008, 10:46 PM

I am in Georgia, I would be willing to help with the campaign. send me a pM

Scribbles

02-02-2008, 11:08 PM

As to health care people have no innate right to health care. No more than people have a right to food or housing. People do have the rights to acquire these things of their own accord, so long as they do not violate the rights of others in the process.

We as people may have a moral responsibility to help those in need. But no person has the right to steal from you or me to give to someone in need. All charity must be voluntary, and not be imposed on any person.

Strict constitutionalism is deal breaker. Also you would need to demonstrate sound economic policy, hopefully based in the Austrian theory of economics.

With only a vague idea of issues you may support, and a possible leaning toward socialist health care, I would not be able to support you in an election. If your going to run for office you must have a clear outlined platform open for review.

When you have this ready, and have a clear and thoughtful platform layed out, I will again consider supporting you as a candidate.

magicmike

02-02-2008, 11:36 PM

To the OP, PM me when you get things organized, I am organizing a newspaper and may be able to help promote your bid.

Ron Paul for Liberty

02-03-2008, 12:31 AM

Again healthcare is a basic human right.....please give your response on why is it NOT......

Health care is a basic human right says who? You? The Bible? No. The US Constitution? No. We have the right to life. It's the individuals choice if he or she wants to take care of themselves and live a "healthy" lifestyle. If I somehow severely injure myself, no one is obligated to help me. I can't force anyone to help me. Its up to other individuals to choose if they will help me voluntarily, in modern times we have Doctors who get paid to, if they don't get paid they don't have to help you and you don't have the right to make them do it against there will. Thats Libertarianism my friend. Do you even believe in personal liberty and personal responsibility. Brother you sound like a Liberal to me.

Scribbles

02-03-2008, 01:47 AM

Again healthcare is a basic human right.....please give your response on why is it NOT......

First a Ron Paul quote:

"The political left equates freedom with liberation from material wants, always via a large and benevolent government that exists to create equality on earth. To modern liberals, men are free only when the laws of economics and scarcity are suspended, the landlord is rebuffed, the doctor presents no bill, and groceries are given away. But philosopher Ayn Rand (and many others before her) demolished this argument by explaining how such “freedom” for some is possible only when government takes freedoms away from others. In other words, government claims on the lives and property of those who are expected to provide housing, medical care, food, etc. for others are coercive-- and thus incompatible with freedom. “Liberalism,” which once stood for civil, political, and economic liberties, has become a synonym for omnipotent coercive government." - http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/161/what-does-freedom-really-mean/

By your logic there should be a massive government program to provide food and clothing to right? I mean people need thse things to right? And Why stop there people need housing right, so maybe the governemnt should take over that industry too, give it to FEMA or something. What's next on this list then after these? </sarcasm>

Socialism is a slippery slope my friend.

allyinoh

02-03-2008, 11:51 AM

he is debating hillary's plan.......
like I said hillary and Obama have hijacked the real healthcare plan and made people turn against it so now everyone hates the concept of a Universal health care....
please we all need to read the plans before we disscuss this.....I am more anti hillary plan than you b/c she is actually distorting what all doctors want ....ie healthcare for all with insurance companies out of the way....

I disagree. He mentions Hilary's plan but he lays out WHY health care is not a right. Did you really not get that out of it? All you got was that he was debating Hillary's plan?

Health care is a SERVICE. Services are not rights. I think you are confusing the two.

You have the right to life but no where does it say that you have the right to health care.

garrettwombat

02-03-2008, 07:49 PM

we cant have people running on similiar platforms... only on "the platform"

american empire

02-04-2008, 11:13 PM

No, you look, "dude"... it's really simple. You don't agree with Ron Paul's ideas of liberty, which happen to coincide with the Constitution. Perhaps you would be better off arguing for a constitutional amendment that refines what a true right is.

And since I don't appreciate your condescending "ignorant radio host talk" comment, I will leave it here and end my part of this discussion by suggesting you (and all other doctors who agree with your position while we're at it) do as another poster suggested and go out and give your services to those in need for free. Try that for a year, then come back and let us know what you think. Til then... see ya!

yes I am greedy and want money for my services....gosh

please a little info would be helpful ....considering I will be looking out for you....so that if you come with testicular torsion in my operating room....I will let it necrose till you have only one left....that will mean one person less to have to care for in a hospital....just b/c you will not pay me...

maybe I should ask money upfront before I will treat your gunshot wound .....that way I can let you bleed while your family contacts your charity for the money to pay me.....

or maybe I would open you uP but not close you leaving your bowels exposed b/c you paid only half the amount....

I love the system you propose....great for my business...I couldn't care less about my patients....thanks