Christian Persecution in Iraq

[A. Havnes]

Okay, my mom is voting for Ron Paul already, but she no longer advocates pulling the troops out of Iraq because, according to missionairies there, the persecution is so terrible that all Christians will be wiped out if we pull out. Apparently, only our troops stand between Christians and Islamic radicals.

My question is, how do I respond to this? What's going to happen to the Christians once we pull out, and how is this good for Ron Paul?

Link to article: http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/310127.aspx

[chiplitfam]

You raise interesting questions. First, the Lord does not need troops to protect His elect. Also, the Gospel is usually best preached and received in times of great persecution; I believe that is what will begin to happen right here in America. Prayer is our best weapon, not carnal means. This is a spiritual battle, and God's Providence is our safety. We are secure in Christ eternally. It does not mean we will escape persecution and or death by the hands of man. Our Kingdom is not of this world. So taking the troops out will not really bring more fear to these missionaries, just more opportunities to present the truth in Christ.

[RSLudlum]

So the US is suppose to have bases every place christians live to protect them? :confused:

If you use that type of logic, shouldn't the Vatican have it's own army to protect Cathollics where ever they want to live?

[A. Havnes]

I think the point my mom was trying to make was that if we leave right now, the Christian world will be all but exstinct in Iraq. She has no problem with completely pulling out once it's certain that all Christian will be safe.

As Ron Paul said, Christians were safter under Saddam Hussein!

[A. Havnes]

Bump.

[samforpaul]

Hey, I thought about starting a thread on this.
I bet Chuck Colson never thought when he wrote this commentary in August that fans of a presidential candidate would use this. However according to Colson, Christians there have been persecuted and have "no future". Here's the link:


www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=6999 - 33k


Also did anyone else see "60 Minutes" a month or two ago that interviewed a preacher or priest from Iraq that said Christians were treated better under Saddam?

[A. Havnes]

Also did anyone else see a 60 Minutes a month or two ago that interviewed a preacher or priest from Iraq that said Christians were treated better under Saddam?

Yep! Even Ron Paul said this before!

[Bladestunner316]

One of the pastors on the puritan board told me that before we invaded there was 1.5 mill christians in Iraq with a reasonable amount of freedom. Not that SH was a good guy but he did maintain some amount of order. Now there are around .5 mill and I have not heard a thing from our christian president regarding this.

[thehittgirl]

One of the pastors on the puritan board told me that before we invaded there was 1.5 mill christians in Iraq with a reasonable amount of freedom. Not that SH was a good guy but he did maintain some amount of order. Now there are around .5 mill and I have not heard a thing from our christian president regarding this.

It's awful. I'm feeling a bit blue about the fact that many Christians are still asleep. I don't know why...usually I get an "I like Huckabee" that sets it off. Not today. I didn't get to pass out my antiwar DVDs(burner is broke) so maybe that's it.

[whereishelpicon]

So Christian lives are more valuable than Muslim lives? Sickening if you ask me.

The only thing to do is to offer asylum to moderate Muslims and Christians (we don't need to let in extremists from either group) in Iraq before we leave. The other ways they still end up in the middle of blood shed.

Plus anyways it seems she makes the assumption that Christians are getting special protection in Iraq. They aren't. There's nothing keeping them from being ethnically cleansed the same way theres nothing really stopping car bombs going off in Baghdad or Sunnis cleansing Shiites or the other way around.

We already Murphy's Law'd Iraq to the point where there's nothing we can do to help the Iraqis. They'd probably sort themselves out a lot quicker and peacefully without us there than they can now.

[nc4rp]

tell her that maybe they should try coming home, and going back over when the iraqis have forgiven america for destroying their country, killing their innocent peoples, and displacing their families from their homes and country?

[Joey Wahoo]

An interesting, and tragic fact, is that Christian persecution in Iraq began when we took over. Saddam tolerated and protected Christianity. There were Christians in his cabinet. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the bozo who broadcast the ridiculous propaganda during the war was Christian.

In any event, the chaos brought on by our invasion has led to the mass emigration of most Christians from Iraq. There aren't many left.

I would answer her that the best way to protect Christians around the world is to not behave in a way that leads to repressive backlash against them.

[A. Havnes]

So Christian lives are more valuable than Muslim lives? Sickening if you ask me.


No one said they are more valuable. However, Muslims don't face extinction. I'm not saying that there haven't been thousands of Muslim deaths (and Americans are responsible for many of these crimes as well), but they currently aren't being persecuted, at least not to my knowledge. I actually don't look this up often, so I might be wrong.

[JohnM]

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the bozo who broadcast the ridiculous propaganda during the war was Christian.

No, he wasn't. But Tariq Aziz, the Deputy Prime Minister was. Aziz was a Chaldean Catholic, who was originally called Michael Yuhanna, but changed his name because it sounded too Christian.

There is another issue here. When we are talking about Christians, are we talking about people who are personally committed to Jesus Christ, or those who happened to have a nominal attachment? Some of us would very much doubt that Tariq Aziz was a real follower of Jesus Christ. He was, after all, a very loyal follower of Saddam Hussein.

My own take on this is that the U.S. should not be using its military power to support Christians, whether nominal or believing. Individual, believing Christians, however, have a duty to support their brothers and sisters in Iraq in prayer, (and also by whatever other means are at their disposal.)

[maghi85]

this is just ridiculous....
I mean Christians were living in Iraq for the past 1500 years and more and never faced persecution... or any kind of bombing

how can we forget that Saddam Hussiens Prime Minister was a Christian...?!?!?!?!??!

it's really funny how we can easily captiulate to this crappy media about suicide bombers and al-qaeda nonsense... the same media that tries to cover up Ron Paul...
how could you trust them about the Iraqi coverage???

i mean if they're so good at covering up whats happening at home then what about some place 5000 miles from home???

ever heard of Robert Fisk (google him)? he's one of the most experienced journalists... he has interviewed many Iraqis (and even OBL) about the so-called suicide bombings that take place in Iraq...
one interview said that he was a delivery man for US contracters... he took a parcel and was told by the US contracter to deliver it at some point in Iraq... on arrival to that point he was asked to call a certain number for his parcel to be collected.. fortunately enough his mobile reception wasn't working so he left his car and walked a few steps away to get a better reception and boom his car blew up...

I mean how can we forget the news that came on BBC in 2004 about Britons cought planting bombs around Iraq... they were arrested by the Iraqi army.. and then the British army came and blew up the entire prison to release those Britons who were planting the bombs...

google this information...
i mean open your eyes and don't believe the MSM lies...

they're instigating fear amongst the Christian community to gather support for the war...
just as Israel instigated anti-Jewish sentiment all over the middleeast to provoke civil strife and force Jews in the middleeast to migerate to Israel...

[whereishelpicon]

No one said they are more valuable. However, Muslims don't face extinction. I'm not saying that there haven't been thousands of Muslim deaths (and Americans are responsible for many of these crimes as well), but they currently aren't being persecuted, at least not to my knowledge. I actually don't look this up often, so I might be wrong.

There is ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Iraq and the different sects extremists have been killing each other and US troops since the start of the war. In fact, many neighborhoods have been ethnically cleansed already or are in the process of being.

Unless they get another Saddam, in the way that the person is strong and also isn't trying to kill everyone from an opposing religious sect, they will likely face many fights between them. So to stay just to protect Christians is valuing their lives over Muslim lives. Because there are fewer is not a good reason either.

[Lisa S]

I believe Christians lived there peaceably before we went in Iraq.

[A. Havnes]

I know Christians were not persecuted before we went to Iraq, I know Saddam Hussein had Christians in his cabinet, and I don't believe that Al-Queda is responsible for half of what we say it is. I just need some information for her on what the situation in Iraq will be after we pull out.

So, what can I say about that. I know Ron Paul wouldn't do that if he thought it wasn't the right thing to do, and I agree with him - I just need something to send my mom.

[boberino]

I believe Christians lived there peaceably before we went in Iraq.

I'd have to agree.

Also, wouldn't being killed for your faith be a good thing in the end?

[maghi85]

tell her about how the Shiites in the south after the surge (exactly what RP said) have stabalized the region that they're in control of...

[JohnM]

I just need some information for her on what the situation in Iraq will be after we pull out.

I hesitate to try to predict the future, but the answer is probably that it will not be good for Christians, or for Muslims, or for anyone. However, it will not be much worse than it is at present. My guess is that a large proportion of the Christian community will leave.

It also needs to be said there is nothing new in this. One authority wrote (a few years ago) "Until the early part of the twentieth century, Christians constituted about 30% of the Iraqi population. Immigration and other demographic factors have reduced the numbers to less than 8% at the present time. "

Because of immigration, the Christian community in Iraq has been in long term numerical decline for generations, and this will undoubtedly continue in the future no matter what the U.S. government does.

During the war in 2003, I was introduced to an Iraqi who was an evangelical Christian. It was a moving moment. I am concerned about Iraqi Christians. But U.S. involvement in Iraq over the past 5 years has done them no long term good, and I would doubt that a continuing U.S. military presence will do them any long term good.

[nate895]

You raise interesting questions. First, the Lord does not need troops to protect His elect. Also, the Gospel is usually best preached and received in times of great persecution; I believe that is what will begin to happen right here in America. Prayer is our best weapon, not carnal means. This is a spiritual battle, and God's Providence is our safety. We are secure in Christ eternally. It does not mean we will escape persecution and or death by the hands of man. Our Kingdom is not of this world. So taking the troops out will not really bring more fear to these missionaries, just more opportunities to present the truth in Christ.

+1, This was my most difficult issue when I heard the RP opposed the war, and then I realized that they are already being persecuted in Afghanistan, while we are there, so it's best if we pray for them and hope they aren't harmed.

Or, we could try to rescue them while we are pulling out, sneak them into Turkey, or bring them here, there are only a couple hundred thousand.

[VoteForRonPaul]

Okay, my mom is voting for Ron Paul already, but she no longer advocates pulling the troops out of Iraq because, according to missionairies there, the persecution is so terrible that all Christians will be wiped out if we pull out. Apparently, only our troops stand between Christians and Islamic radicals.

My question is, how do I respond to this? What's going to happen to the Christians once we pull out, and how is this good for Ron Paul?

Link to article: http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/310127.aspx
Very important post, thanks!
I think that there are many factors we have to consider when dealing with this sensitive subject.
First: Determine how many Christians Iraqis are really on the ground in Iraq right now?
Second: Where they are mostly located?
Third: Whose responsibility the security of minorities? Is it the Iraqi police or another party?
Fourth: Should this be taken as an excuse for occupying other nations?
Fifth: Is this the right time for missionaries to be out there? In the middle of a civil war while they are trying to evangelize people Sunis and Shiates? I think missionaries are a big threat for Christians out there-at this time-because they are increasing the level of tension between religions. So they provide the incentive for radical islamists at this time where Iraq is not secure place to live in for all Iraqis.
Sixth: What is the source of this information? CBN
Seventh: What are the ideologies which channels like CBN&TBN embrace? Is it to bring religions together or push them for a fight?
Eighth: Pat Robertson is the founder of CBN and he is one of the wildest voices against Islam as a religion and publicly endorsed Rudy Guliani.
More about Pat Robertson could be found here at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson

[boberino]

Martyrdom is a one-way ticket north.

[misericordia]

believe with all your heart and it will happen. For if God desires it, it will happen. You do not realize the tremendous power you have through your faith, power more than the angels. If you believe with all your heart and trust God in what you are praying for, it will happen; but you must believe, you must trust, and you must have unconditional faith.

Peaceful coexistence under Saddam reinforces Ron Paul's 'unjust war' position.

[Kade]

Okay, my mom is voting for Ron Paul already, but she no longer advocates pulling the troops out of Iraq because, according to missionairies there, the persecution is so terrible that all Christians will be wiped out if we pull out. Apparently, only our troops stand between Christians and Islamic radicals.

My question is, how do I respond to this? What's going to happen to the Christians once we pull out, and how is this good for Ron Paul?

Link to article: http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/310127.aspx

Why are there Christian Missionaries in Iraq?

[therealjjj77]

Okay, my mom is voting for Ron Paul already, but she no longer advocates pulling the troops out of Iraq because, according to missionairies there, the persecution is so terrible that all Christians will be wiped out if we pull out. Apparently, only our troops stand between Christians and Islamic radicals.

My question is, how do I respond to this? What's going to happen to the Christians once we pull out, and how is this good for Ron Paul?

Link to article: http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/310127.aspx

"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also."

Persecution is not terrible for Christians. Also, they won't all be wiped out if they truly are Christ's. You would then see a lot of chaff leave the country(who only harm the work) with the troops while the real laborers will stay and God will protect them.

Also, if you allow people to keep the fruits of their labor, more missionaries could be sent.

Do we walk by faith or by sight? Is CBN News the gospel or is the Bible the gospel?

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish."

[Kade]

"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also."

Persecution is not terrible for Christians. Also, they won't all be wiped out if they truly are Christ's. You would then see a lot of chaff leave the country(who only harm the work) with the troops while the real laborers will stay and God will protect them.

Also, if you allow people to keep the fruits of their labor, more missionaries could be sent.

Do we walk by faith or by sight? Is CBN News the gospel or is the Bible the gospel?

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish."

What does the bible say about Christians persecuting non-believers in America?

[DeadtoSin]

Maybe that they aren't acting like Christians Kade? Don't even start, we don't want to hear how hypocritical you think that Christians are. Its just like I don't go around telling you how close minded I think you, and the more outspoken athiests act by constantly persecuting anything that has a hint of faith in it. (Not all athiests, but you have a hint of it I think)

Some Christians actually try to live like Christ. Its not necessary for you to come in here and troll because you hate religion. We see your sig, we get it.

I still love you as a person, but I'm going to have to ask you to stop. Let me live in the way I see fit with as little sneering as possible, and understand that I have to tell people about my faith in Christ. I'm not talking about being pushy, but I'm talking about letting people know what I believe, and why I believe it.

So just drop it ok?

[Kade]

Maybe that they aren't acting like Christians Kade? Don't even start, we don't want to hear how hypocritical you think that Christians are. Its just like I don't go around telling you how close minded I think you, and the more outspoken athiests act by constantly persecuting anything that has a hint of faith in it. (Not all athiests, but you have a hint of it I think)

Some Christians actually try to live like Christ. Its not necessary for you to come in here and troll because you hate religion. We see your sig, we get it.

I still love you as a person, but I'm going to have to ask you to stop. Let me live in the way I see fit with as little sneering as possible, and understand that I have to tell people about my faith in Christ. I'm not talking about being pushy, but I'm talking about letting people know what I believe, and why I believe it.

So just drop it ok?

I get it. I have no problem with you living the way you see fit... If you notice, I'm only going after the people here who think that the government should promote Christianity, through laws, through taxes, through other means of favoritism.

I do not troll. I've been appalled with the unbelievable amount of insanity and lack of understanding when it comes to religious tolerance. For the people who think they must push their faith in me, I reserve my right to question their faith. That is fair. I don't come to your door to promote reason.

Anyway, I love you as a person too =) I have no problem with you especially with a live and let live mentality. We can debate all day... am I a hateful militant atheist?

No. I don't hate anyone, and I have yet to take up arms against anyone.

I promise you though, as I've said over and over... this nation is not a Christian Nation, and I will fight in every possible way I can, through my law degree, through other means, to prevent this nation from being Ruled by the words of the Bible... if there is any attempt to do this on the attempt of this Constitutionally bound government, I consider it persecution. I will not hold back on that... it is what it is... I do not believe in a GOD, I am a PATRIOT who does not believe that this is ONE NATION UNDER GOD, I do not trust in GOD, nor do I want my money going to any support of any version of personal religious doctrines.

I will not budge on this stance. It is one of neutrality and fairness, and it is a founding principle. I will not be compelled to support anything but the free profession of those beliefs.

I also assure you that you will never meet a former Christian, a humanist and an atheist agnostic that you have the authority to call close-minded. Quite the opposite actually.

[DeadtoSin]

I agree that it is not a Christian nation, meaning that everyone is required or is obligated to be a Christian at least in name. However, I do believe that the bulk of the people in America at the time of its founding were Christian, and that many ideas from Christianity carried over into the Constitution. Thats not really my concern, whether America is a Christian nation.

I'm sorry for coming off a little bit harsh, I suppose it undermines my whole message, so forgive me there please. I do not know any Christians that force their faith on others. As a Christian, I do talk to people about my faith in Christ. I especially talk to my friends, who are not necessarily Christian. I do not browbeat them, but it is an important thing to me, and they understand that.

Trust me, I am a Christian, and nobody agrees with you more than I do about not being ruling the nation with Christianity. Its a scary thought. Here is why...

First of all, I'm kind of wary of us trying to get the federal government to do our job for us. Thats sort of what I feel like we as Christians are really doing in government as of lately. I'm not talking about voting against what you believe, and things like that. Definitely, vote for the candidate that fits your ideals the closest. However, we really push Congress and the Judiciary to enforce our morals.

I have a problem with this. First off, I think we should be careful about the way we go about bringing morality to this nation. Doing it with the iron first of the Federal government is a scary road to turn down. Just think of the abuses the government could get away with if they had not only the power but the moral high ground to do it as well!

Also, consider how non-Christians perceive us. If they are REQUIRED to act in the same fashion as we are, how are we any different from they are? Obviously we know the difference, but a non-Christian person would feel no compulsion to make any commitment, and they'd see no real reason.

It really goes back to the Pharisees and their desire to live a holy life by doing it themselves. Sure, if we had a law against lying, people wouldn't lie. But think about it, does that really make them more holy? Only the desire to live a life like Christ's life and your belief in Him saves you. So when we force our ideals on people, you've got to think, is that man trying to live holy..or is he trying to not get arrested/fined?

In any case, I've been rather unhappy with the Federal government's decisions on social issues. I mean, look at Roe vs. Wade. Do we really want something like THAT case on the books for all the things we hold dear to us as Christians?

We should be shining God's love, not trying to force the Federal govt to do so.

So yeah, we agree there. Your original message about Christians acting a certain way in America just sort of bothered me. It was really rather off topic I thought, and its really scary and disheartening reading about Christianity on the internet. Just about every post I read talks about how religion should be wiped out, how worthless/stupid we are...and I just got frustrated.

So again, forgive me for coming on so strong, but I hope you understand why now..

[Kade]

I agree that it is not a Christian nation, meaning that everyone is required or is obligated to be a Christian at least in name. However, I do believe that the bulk of the people in America at the time of its founding were Christian, and that many ideas from Christianity carried over into the Constitution. Thats not really my concern, whether America is a Christian nation.

I'm sorry for coming off a little bit harsh, I suppose it undermines my whole message, so forgive me there please. I do not know any Christians that force their faith on others. As a Christian, I do talk to people about my faith in Christ. I especially talk to my friends, who are not necessarily Christian. I do not browbeat them, but it is an important thing to me, and they understand that.

Trust me, I am a Christian, and nobody agrees with you more than I do about not being ruling the nation with Christianity. Its a scary thought. Here is why...

First of all, I'm kind of wary of us trying to get the federal government to do our job for us. Thats sort of what I feel like we as Christians are really doing in government as of lately. I'm not talking about voting against what you believe, and things like that. Definitely, vote for the candidate that fits your ideals the closest. However, we really push Congress and the Judiciary to enforce our morals.

I have a problem with this. First off, I think we should be careful about the way we go about bringing morality to this nation. Doing it with the iron first of the Federal government is a scary road to turn down. Just think of the abuses the government could get away with if they had not only the power but the moral high ground to do it as well!

Also, consider how non-Christians perceive us. If they are REQUIRED to act in the same fashion as we are, how are we any different from they are? Obviously we know the difference, but a non-Christian person would feel no compulsion to make any commitment, and they'd see no real reason.

It really goes back to the Pharisees and their desire to live a holy life by doing it themselves. Sure, if we had a law against lying, people wouldn't lie. But think about it, does that really make them more holy? Only the desire to live a life like Christ's life and your belief in Him saves you. So when we force our ideals on people, you've got to think, is that man trying to live holy..or is he trying to not get arrested/fined?

In any case, I've been rather unhappy with the Federal government's decisions on social issues. I mean, look at Roe vs. Wade. Do we really want something like THAT case on the books for all the things we hold dear to us as Christians?

We should be shining God's love, not trying to force the Federal govt to do so.

So yeah, we agree there. Your original message about Christians acting a certain way in America just sort of bothered me. It was really rather off topic I thought, and its really scary and disheartening reading about Christianity on the internet. Just about every post I read talks about how religion should be wiped out, how worthless/stupid we are...and I just got frustrated.

So again, forgive me for coming on so strong, but I hope you understand why now..

http://www.christianexodus.org/

http://christianparty.net/christianation.htm

http://www.chalcedon.edu/

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

http://www.carm.org/

http://battlecry.com/

http://www.cc.org/

http://www.moralmajority.com/